Williams documentary

[Richard C]

Apologies if there is already a thread about this. I searched and couldn't find one. Anyhow, I don't think I was aware of this film until today. I discovered it on Netflix and just finished watching it.

I have always been a Williams fan and tended to really like Frank. Particularly given his history in the sport. He is an icon.

My thoughts was that the documentary was well done. I learned things I didn't know (particularly how driven he is/was). I had no idea there was conflict between Claire and her brother Jonathan around her ascendence within the team. Claire looks very much like her mother. It is interesting that Frank had never read his wife's book that describes the period after his accident and its impact her and their family.

Richard

[GregUK]

I also watched it this week and really enjoyed it -especially some of the archive footage.

I was, however, a little disturbed by some of the social dynamics portrayed by the film....

[Mekola]

Fangio's son Oscar claimed to know SFW during his F3 and F2 Temporada outings in the late 1960s.
Wonder if is sth about it in the documentary.

[bella]

Originally Posted by GregUK

I was, however, a little disturbed by some of the social dynamics portrayed by the film....

by which i presume you mean some of the more personal family matters? i thought they were handled brilliantly, not dwelled upon but vital in the story of frank and his family.

i mentioned this film in the mclaren thread in armchair, but i really enjoyed it too. the historical footage was excellent, and the additional "dramatic" footage created to illustrate certain parts of the family story wasn't intrusive at all.

i particularly like how no effort was made to over-humanise either claire or frank himself. to have done so would have betrayed who they are, and taken it over to the slightly emotionally manipulative side of the spectrum where i personally feel the senna movie sits.

very much looking forward to reading ginny's book. she sounded like a wonderful woman.

[wnut]

Does anyone have the title of this doco?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by wnut

Does anyone have the title of this doco?

It is called simply "Williams".

[E.B]

The full movie is also available on youtube. Roughly 1 hour 45 minutes long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyXbNAZ69ew

[chunder]

I agree, some of the family stuff was a little odd, and the brother is clearly being kept at arms length for some reason.

I kind of knew this was what Frank was like, but maybe did not realise he was SOO polarised.

She was besotted with him, and I guess that, and the kids are why she put up with it!

And deep down, I am sure he was with her obviously too

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by E.B

The full movie is also available on youtube. Roughly 1 hour 45 minutes long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyXbNAZ69ew

I don't have NETFLIX, so thanks for the link.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't have NETFLIX, so thanks for the link.

Yes, me too, thanks for the link.

[bella]

Originally Posted by chunder

I agree, some of the family stuff was a little odd, and the brother is clearly being kept at arms length for some reason.

i think it's because claire is more like frank, with some of her mothers more human traits and the brother is predominantly his mother with some of his father. if it's the other way round there's no drama, but when the girl is more capable in a business setting it can create some friction with the brother. his reaction to the "does claire come down here?" question was very petulent, whereas claire's response was more considered and she was sad about the situation.

people are different, he's probably brilliant at *insert something here*, but as a son, in a male dominated occasionally macho environment, to have your younger sister asked to take a responsibility ahead of you in the family business, the thing by which siblings are judged, is very problematic. what he chooses to ignore is that he was probably given an opportunity to prove himself earlier in his life and didn't do a good enough job, and he either wouldn't see the big picture, or hasn't had the guidance to help him.

i think running the heritage side is a wonderful responsibility away from the stresses and strains of running the team, but he didn't seem to feel that way.

i'm sure there's more to it but as the daughter of the family in a similar situation i can absolutely see that claire's version of events will be at the core of it.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bella

his reaction to the "does claire come down here?" question was very petulent, whereas claire's response was more considered and she was sad about the situation.

I had the same reaction. But... we are also clearly seeing an edited version of whatever interactions the filmmaker had with the family. So I would take that as the story he was trying to tell. Similar to the editing near the end in which the voice over talked about Frank not going to retire and that he was likely to die at the track (as they showed him falling asleep in the garage... with it looking like someone passing away... just before we woke up again). In fact that one scene was the only one in which I had a negative response. I felt like it was overly dramatic with respect to using that visual with that particular commentary (unnecessary)

Originally Posted by bella

what he chooses to ignore is that he was probably given an opportunity to prove himself earlier in his life and didn't do a good enough job, and he either wouldn't see the big picture, or hasn't had the guidance to help him.it.

I know nothing of the family other than what I have read, but what you say is likely very true (in that sense that it is probably something that plays out day after day in family owned businesses). I can't point to a link, but after watching the movie I did some Google searching and thought I saw a comment in an article that said or implied that Jonathan as more reserved (or something like that.) It ultimately was some quality that to me was not advantageous for a leadership role.

I have my own somewhat (but not totally) fractured relationship with a sibling. It's never easy and also sometimes there are real issues that are not easily resolved even if that would result in a fairy tale ending.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by E.B

The full movie is also available on youtube. Roughly 1 hour 45 minutes long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyXbNAZ69ew

Thank you E.B.

Very harrowing tale, horrible how everybody's lives can be influenced by a single event.

Family business with all the plots and intrigues attached.

I do believe that Virginia was very unfairly treated in the whole deal!

[E.B]

Originally Posted by wnut

Thank you E.B.

My pleasure.
Just a point to those putting the link aside for a future watch, I would suggest you watch it quick as I have noticed other links to the movie have quickly been removed for copyright infringement. Watch while you can.

[bella]

Originally Posted by wnut

I do believe that Virginia was very unfairly treated in the whole deal!

why do you think that?

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I had the same reaction. But... we are also clearly seeing an edited version of whatever interactions the filmmaker had with the family. So I would take that as the story he was trying to tell.

yes, that was the context in which i was viewing it, and it was obviously filmed from claire's perspective. i initially sympathised with jonathan until claire spoke, and in all honesty i'm sure there's more complex issues but i think at the core of it, what started it all, will be the issue she mentioned. it's clearly a very strange family dynamic to raise children in, particularly if one of the childrens minds doesn't work in the same way as franks.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bella

why do you think that?

This is why I think Virginia was unfairly treated:
Relationship prior to getting married:

“We’d been living together for two years and I don’t think he considered he had any obligation toward me.” Virginia Williams.

After the wedding ceremony:

“Alright then, I am going to buy you all a spectacular lunch.” Dave Brodie.
“Not me you’re not I am working.” Frank Williams.
“And he …. Off!” Dave Brodie.
“I don’t know what man in his right mind would have thought that was okay, but Dad did.” Claire Williams.

Family Life:

“He really doesn’t have anything at all going on in his life at all apart from motor racing.” Virginia Williams.
“I am addicted to motor racing Frank Williams declared uncompromisingly, motor racing is what matters most in my life. Well I have a family, but they take second place to the business, there is no question about that.” Frank Williams.
“Have you ever done the family holiday thing?” Interviewer!
“Never done that! … Never had any interest in that.” Frank Williams.
“Went on a family holiday thirty two times with Mom.”
“How many times did Dad come?” Interviewer
“Never, not once.” Claire Williams.

Business Backup by Virginia:

“If Ginny had not been there, Williams would never have made it, because a lot of the money that kept it going was hers.” Frank Dernie.
“No, I don’t think my parents were happy when they learned that Ginny had sold her flat to help Frank.” Brother.
“Frank, used to bounce cheques on me.” Virginia Williams.

Faithfulness to Virginia following his succeeding in F1:

“But I think it was inevitable there were bound to be girls who’d try and get their clutches into Frank.
I can remember finding out about someone and being desperately upset about it.
But I think probably I used to overreact to Frank’s, because they probably weren’t affairs.”
“Indiscretions?” Interviewer
“I used to overreact. Which I think used to annoy him.”
“Did he say they weren’t important?” Interviewer.
“No, he used to deny it. He used to lie, he used to tell the most dreadful whoppers.” Virginia Williams.

“And because she was completely besotted, and head over heels, she used to accept it and get on with it, that was it and she dealt with it. Umm, I wouldn’t.” Claire Williams.

“Did friends of yours, ever say, particularly early on, why do you put up with it?”
“Could you explain it to them?” Interviewer.
“No, because I think they tended to think, I only liked being kicked in the teeth.” Virginia Williams.

Before the accident

Driving like an idiot on the roads, treating a commute on a private road like a time trial, while he had a wife and children.
Got caught out in France with Peter Windsor as a passenger.
“I am going to kill myself on that road if I am not careful.” Frank Williams.
“Frank was a suicide lane driver.” Virginia Williams.

Following the accident

Virginia refused to let Frank die in France, arranged his evacuation to England, learnt how to suction his lungs and supported him as a quadriplegic.
Baring in mind that Virginia had lost a lot in the accident, the following does not indicate much support.
“Frank has no emotional engagement whatsoever.” Virginia Williams.
“Frank does not talk about his feelings.” Virginia Williams.
Frank has never read Virginia’s book, “A different kind of life.”
Shouldn’t you bother to read what was essentially a plea for help from your wife.

Summary

Frank seems to have used and abused someone who clearly adored him.
How much support would Frank have been to Virginia if the roles had been reversed?

[bella]

the thing is, wnut... when you get involved with a man of the sport then you understand that you are second to his work life. it's just how it is. if you don't accept that and deal with it your relationship falls apart. plenty of women don't accept that, and aren't willing to be second in the relationship - and more importantly, have any children second to anything. but others stick with it - maybe because having them around the place all the time like in a civilian relationship would do their head in!

ginny went into the marriage knowing that was what he was like. she left her first husband for him. she knew he had all the groupies around him, and she coped with it. she knew what his life revolved around.i'm sure she felt frustrated by his lack of emotion, infidelity and commitment to her and the children but she got on with it, because those are the downsides of loving a man like him.

if he was that terrible a man, then she would have left him with the children and created a better space for them. she didn't. that ought to tell you how secure and safe she felt in the relationship. so why does that make her unfairly treated? you can't apply your standards to someone elses relationship...

[peebee2]

.

[coppice]

An excellent film but whoever decided to insert the footage of Le Mans 1955 and the appalling segment showing poor Bandini's burnt body had very poor judgement. The stuff was not even relevant to Williams' story, was gratuitous, crass and unnecessary . Uninformed viewers get to find out just how dangerous the sport was from Courage's death in a Williams De Tomaso.

That apart- very good indeed . I read Virginia's book and ended up disliking both her and Frank . Although far from uncommon in the sport, boasting about jolly japes escaping creditors and ripping off punters does not endear them to me. That said , his drive and achievements are extraordinary and were well illustrated by the film .

Claire comes over superbly - smart, compassionate , businesslike and endearingly human - considering how dysfunctional her family appears to be ('No , I haven't read my wife's book ..'). But her brother..wow ..there's a whole case study of bitterness and family schism there . He did not strike me as being quite the sharpest tool in the box compared to his sister.

[Kingair]

Purchased a copy recently in one of the UK high street outlets for £6.49.

Santa has put it away, along with the McLaren story for Christmas!

[F1Guy]

Have not watched this doco yet. Waiting 'till seasons end, and a cold winters night. Sir Frank Williams is a man I admire greatly. A true inspiration.


Would love to see Williams win another championship. Sir Frank deserves it.

[TzeiTzei]

It was really good. The a bit different to the usual F1 docs.

[Moneyseeker]

A great insight into the character of the Williams family overall.

I can do you a very small anecdote. At the end of the 1999 BTCC season, Williams withdrew from the BTCC with the F1 teams move to BMW power, so the Renault touring car team was to be sold off including the cars and all the kit,trucks, hosptality unit, etc. We were amongst several parties interested in acquiring it, I recall driving back from the office one day and my phone ringing in the car to find 'Hello, this is Frank Williams' on the other end of the line. He was calling me to confirm arrangements for us to visit the factory to view all the cars and kit and letting me know who would be showing us round, etc. This struck me at the time as selling off BTCC assets was small beer compared to the F1 operation, but of course the realisation was, that this was HIS team and HIS money so of course he was interested in who was potentially buying and that they had a good experience. That was my small insight into SFW and how he was very much right across his whole business, even down to that relatively small matter.

[mikestow]

I have not seen the film,but will try to.Having known Frank Williams from the Harrow Flat days to 361 Bath Road Chippenham,I always found him to be extremely helpful ,as I was trying to be an inspring F3 driver at the time.I know he used to use several different phone boxes to pretend his Race Car Parts Business was flourishing,but apart from Robs Lamplough in Adam and Eve Mews,there was no one else to talk to or get te right useable bits from.I basically went to him,having had little luck with the "Major" at Coopers trying to run an old Cooper T76,and he told me straight it had to be a Brabham.He shouted downstairs for his sidekick "Revs" Dawson to come up and introduced me.I had only bought bits and pieces from him before his move to Slough,and found this was an entirely different ball game.His front room were Customer Cars either self maintained or part helped by Frank's Kiwi Mechs and Bob"Dynamite"Lewis Evans,plus chassis for sale.Behind and down some steps was a Stores that covered every single nut and bolt/Accessory/Manifold/Sideplate/Ratio required for any self build of a chassis to a complete car.Off that room was Piers Courage's Brabhams Dave Mullah's shop,with other offshoots where privateers could lease space.As you went in the front behind the Pub was "Racing Gearboxes" of Kevan Riley and Howden Ganley.All in all it was a complete Racing Car establishment to cater from a nobody ,as I was,to one of the Stars like Courage!Out the back were a jumble of old and more recent Transporters.In fact even if your car was not kept there,Frank would allow you to use the "Volksy" for your race weekend for very little money on a bend it mend it basis.Loads of apochrapal stories have come out,regarding canabalising of spares and bits and pieces from customers cars that raced infrequently,but I never knew anyone that had actually been got at.Tyres were another very costly item,that he could help with.Down the road at Langley was Firestone Racing Division,run by Chris Parry.You coud arrive there with your old set up,and tell Ernie B and John D that Frank had told you to come down,and suddenly you were shown a great stack of barely scrubbed in Firestones in whatever size you wanted,which they would mount and balance for very little.It kept everyone going and made the lower Formulae great fun at little cost.Until Mike Ticehurst started Motor Racing Enterprizes at Penn,later Bourne End,no one could touch Frank with the Support he gave the youngsters in those days.His amusing Adverts in Autosport told the tale of him taking the mickey out of himself,with "I dont fleece you at the top of the page like others can"!!His private life was obviously another matter,but as a young wouldbe racer,he was most definitely the Man.I was most grateful to have been able to offered his help when I most needed it,so a great Thank You to him.

[Fuston]

I was unaware of this Williams documentary. Can't wait to see it. Thanks for making me aware of it.