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Top Gear · 31 Dec 2003, 14:24 (Ref:824600)

I love BTCC but in tne last few years I've been abit disheartend by the amount of inexperienced drivers like Paul Wallace, Danny Buxton and now Charlie Butler-Henderson & Fariqe Hairuman. I know these men have come up though different series but what BTCC needs is the Rydells & Menus back and afew more manufatures would be nice and also bigger cars cause I hate the hatchbacks. Its not all bad as we still have Muller, Thompson, Reid, Plato, & Neal.

MikeH · 31 Dec 2003, 19:19 (Ref:824744)

Money talks - drivers like Annie Templeton and suchlike would never make it to the BTCC on talent alone but the money has to come from somewhere in order to have any cars in the series so it's something of a trade-off.

I'd take issue with Danny Buxton being on that list though - he's got some speed in him.

kmchow · 1 Jan 2004, 00:27 (Ref:824854)

I agree it's fine to have rookie drivers or relatively unexperienced drivers in the Independent class, but when the relatively unexperienced automatically race at the top level, then I could understand why some people may resent that. And to compound things things the new drivers get the seat b/c they have money, I think even more people resent that!

Jonny Apex · 1 Jan 2004, 15:06 (Ref:825176)

Top Gear: I agree with some of what you say, but Daniel Buxton more than deserves his place on the BTCC grid after proving himself in the very tough Clio Cup championship: champion and multiple race winner. Certainly, I can think of several so-called 'rising stars' out there who never really proved themselves in anything before reaching BTCC. And in many respects still haven't.

Buxton also showed he had more than enough speed to cut it with the best when he started getting to grips with the difficult Peugeot in 2003 (with no testing). He often set race laps faster than or the equal of his team-mate Dan Eaves, no slouch himself. Take Donington Park, for example, where he repeatedly lapped up to a second faster than Eaves until spinning after contact with Independents champion Rob Collard's superior Astra Coupe no less.

I agree that more 'star' names would be welcome, but so too are deserving rookies. Thompson, after all, was himself a 'rookie' back in '94, as was Plato in '97, although he got a terrific break with the Williams-Renault UK team - not many rookies get a chance like that. He was perhaps deserving of it, however: ie. a mega talent.

For me, the BTCC is more about quality than quantity. I'd rather have 18 very good drivers out there in cars turned out by teams worthy of a place in the BTCC, than 30 cars of which a dozen are either driven by no-hopers or that are ill-prepared/of shabby appearance.

On saying that, adequate-performing rich 'amateurs' are also welcome in my book, as they can sometimes perform giant-killing acts which are also great for headlines. Besides, you will always get a handful of these on a grid, no matter what the level of the championship.

BootsOntheSide · 1 Jan 2004, 15:37 (Ref:825183)

I'm really impressed with the forthcoming season's grid. It looks like the Proton lineup will contain two established international stars, replacing a geriatric adn a relative nobody. Gary Ayles has been a good talent scout in the past - Wallace looked pretty useful in the Astra, and Butler-Henderson should be as well.

As Jonny points out, guys like Thompson and Plato raised a few eyebrows when they got works drives, but they were winners very quickly. Luke Hines could be the same.

It's a shame when guys like Pyper can't get rides, but not many works deals exist right now, and the independant teams have to take funded drivers to balance the books.

Apex's penultimate paragraph seemed strange to me. Both situations he suggests involve 18 well-prepared cars driven by talented drivers, so what's wrong with having a few backmarkers out tehre. They provide action further back and the odd surprise, as well as a bit of grass-roots enthusiasm, so what's the harm?

Craner Curves · 1 Jan 2004, 16:12 (Ref:825190)

Quote:

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
It looks like the Proton lineup will contain two established international stars

You're obviously familiar with Farique Hairuman who started racing only a couple of years ago.....

daz90 · 1 Jan 2004, 18:15 (Ref:825227)

the bttc is dying, and has been since about 1999, the hey day of the mid 90's are now a distant memory.

the btcc 1st attracted me back in 92, i liked it because of the closeness of the racing, the drivers back then were people you could relate to, they were ordinary guys, and mostly brits, they were also household names, now today the drivers seem a little distant, and most are unheard of. the mid 90's were so much better, even the racing was better, the grids were full of everyday cars that many fans owned, now they are not, i dont know anyone with a mg, or an astra coupe, but i know plenty of people with vectras, mondeo and volvos. it has become to much like f1, 1 team now dominates it, vauxhall, and there is a complete lack of interest from manufacturers, the people who had once started to take an interest in the btcc have now begun to lose interest in the series, i must admit that i havent followed it now for a couple of years, its just not what it was.

Jonny Apex · 1 Jan 2004, 18:47 (Ref:825239)

Quote:

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
I'm really impressed with the forthcoming season's grid. It looks like the Proton lineup will contain two established international stars (JA: cough, cough) replacing a geriatric (JA: Leslie, a front-runner and race-winner for over a decade)) adn a relative nobody (Bennett, a proven race-winner). Gary Ayles has been a good talent scout in the past - Wallace (JA: a midfielder at best in Clios) looked pretty useful in the Astra, and Butler-Henderson (JA: so-so in Clios) should be as well.

Apex's penultimate paragraph seemed strange to me. Both situations he suggests involve 18 well-prepared cars driven by talented drivers, so what's wrong with having a few backmarkers out tehre. They provide action further back and the odd surprise, as well as a bit of grass-roots enthusiasm, so what's the harm?

I suggest you read my final paragraph again. What I was saying here is that I don't mind rich amateurs who have a reasonable level of ability. As I pointed out, they throw up a surprise result sometimes. What I don't want to see in BTCC are people way out of their depth. It makes me cringe more than I do when I watch The Office and is embarrassing for the championship. AT BTCC level, I'd much prefer to watch a smaller, high quality grid than a larger grid propped up by a few duffers at the back. They do nothing for its image.

the_tsar · 1 Jan 2004, 22:14 (Ref:825342)

Times have changed, especially since sept 11th. I don't think we need the likes of Menu, Rydell back, no disrespect to them but time has moved on, Thompson, Muller, Reid, Neal etc are the "stars" now. As for one team dominating it, that is slowly coming to an end. I think people need to let go of Super touring and look to the future, things are different and we need to accept that. The racing is good, 2002 was a great season in my opinion but, slightly contradicting myself I thought 2003 was a bit dull, the first year I haven't bothered with the DVD

Craner Curves · 2 Jan 2004, 01:19 (Ref:825438)

Quote:

Originally posted by daz90
the bttc is dying, and has been since about 1999, the hey day of the mid 90's are now a distant memory.

the btcc 1st attracted me back in 92, i liked it because of the closeness of the racing, the drivers back then were people you could relate to, they were ordinary guys, and mostly brits, they were also household names, now today the drivers seem a little distant, and most are unheard of. the mid 90's were so much better, even the racing was better, the grids were full of everyday cars that many fans owned, now they are not, i dont know anyone with a mg, or an astra coupe, but i know plenty of people with vectras, mondeo and volvos. it has become to much like f1, 1 team now dominates it, vauxhall, and there is a complete lack of interest from manufacturers, the people who had once started to take an interest in the btcc have now begun to lose interest in the series, i must admit that i havent followed it now for a couple of years, its just not what it was.

Arrrrgh!! We're all doomed! The end is nigh!!

Why are a lot of people still living in the mid 1990s? Do F1 fans call for Prost, Mansell and other contempary drivers to return? No.

kmchow · 2 Jan 2004, 04:09 (Ref:825489)

Quote:

Originally posted by daz90
...the hey day of the mid 90's are now a distant memory.
...the btcc 1st attracted me back in 92, i liked it because of the closeness of the racing,it has become to much like f1, 1 team now dominates it, vauxhall,

I think the BTCC did literally become F1. I think Renault started the trend hooking up with Williams Renault, then Alfa perhaps got more help from their Ferrari links, Volvo got TWR, Ford started using Cosworth/Reynard, BMW got Mclaren's help in certain other world ST championships,etc... The drivers started changing from touring car bred ones to single seater experiences ones.

While it made the BTCC more professional, perhaps the cost associated with using F1 teams/technology/partners contributed to it's demise?

Maisie · 2 Jan 2004, 09:38 (Ref:825564)

Hmm....

So, Top Gear only wants "experienced" drivers in the BTCC, so how are the unexperienced supposed to get their experience? *headshake*

If you'd been paying attention recently, you would know that Danny Buxton is a damn good driver, and Paul O'Neill's no slouch either! I don't think the BTCC needs "star power" to survive - good racing will do! The star effect will follow naturally once people prove themselves. The problem is that the audience for BTCC is not what it was. Back in the 80s and 90s, it was promoted and covered properly by the press and television. Now it's very much an afterthought, although it's getting better.
I do agree that the BTCC ought to be the premier saloon car series, and hence have the best and most proven drivers, but I also believe that if someone shows promise and talent (and can come up with the funding, as this is sadly what drives most contracts these days!), then why not give someone with less experience a chance?

You sound like someone who hasn't been in the club/national racing loop for a while - if you had been, you'd know why the Danny Buxtons and CB-Hs of this world are getting the chance to race in the BTCC.

daz90, I just love posts like yours, that go off on a huge rant about how things just aren't like they used to be, and how everything's going downhill and the series is dying yadda yadda yadda, and then you finish off with "i must admit that i havent followed it now for a couple of years, its just not what it was." So how can you give an informed opinion?

Why not get yourself down to a few races before making sweeping statements?

Carrie · 2 Jan 2004, 10:00 (Ref:825574)

Well, isn't this just a topic to raise people's opinions. It amazes me when people comment about the BTCC being too full of new drivers and say that it would be better with a return of the old names. Just remember that at one time, the old faces were the new drivers. We need new talent coming into any series and surely it's best to have a mix of talented newcomers and established drivers.

I think most people will be most attracted to the time period when they got interested in the BTCC and undoubtedly we saw some fantastic racing in the early nineties which makes people hark back to that as a glory era. As has been said it was certainly on the decline by 1999 and 2000 was just dire, the ST era had to come to an end and the BTCC needed to evolve into what it is today. It wouldn't have been feasibly for costs to continue to rise, it would have become more and more elitist. As it is, 2001 with the new rules wasn't the greatest, but the BTCC has been doing a good job of re-establishing itself and I'm sure will continue to in 2004. Daz90, you really should catch up and see a few races before you claim that the BTCC has been dying since 1999.

daz90 · 2 Jan 2004, 12:14 (Ref:825642)

sorry but in my opinion it went very much down hill when they adopted the new rules in 2001, ok i might in some peoples veiw not be in a good position to comment as by my own admition i have not followed it at during the previous season, but the year before i did go to the season finale at donnington. i just prefer to see fuller grids with proper saloon cars, ok i admit i like the old supertouring rules, they were the hey day and that in my opinion is what the men in charge should be striving to achive now, be it with the current rules or a switch back. although i must admit the entrence of the ettc cars such as the bmw of edenbridge? look like my sort of cars. i am part of the tv veiwer audience who was 1st attracted to the btcc because of all the coverage and the then great racing, now there is a lack of decent coverage, the exception being motors tv, but i now prefer the aussy v8s because of them. i truly wish that the btcc does grow in stature again, and i must admit along with a few others that the new breed of drivers cant harm the championship at all, there are still a few big names knocking about, but i just prefered the old style of drivers, the pre f1 era/gentlemen drivers. cleland, rouse, hoy, and the likes of menu, rydell, harvey etc etc, i do understand that things have moved on, and could definatly see the reason for the demise of supertouring for the new rules back in 01, due to costs that were in effect removing interest from prospective manufacturers, but they still have the same problems, a lack of munufacturer interest, and i also know there are a lot of manufcturers who are now partners and wont want to compete mark against mark.
now this may seem to you as another rant, but i am entitled to an opinion, as are everyone who has at some point followed anything of interest to them. but i appologise if i have caused offence to anyone.

nicker less · 2 Jan 2004, 12:24 (Ref:825650)

Quote:

Originally posted by Craner Curves
Arrrrgh!! We're all doomed! The end is nigh!!

Why are a lot of people still living in the mid 1990s? Do F1 fans call for Prost, Mansell and other contempary drivers to return? No.

So you saying we should complete forget the history and cast it aside? Are you not atall interested in the BTCC when it was better?

But I have to say when I fancy watching the BTCC, I find my hand going towards the mid 90s tapes, maybe that's because I prefer the living in the mid-90s cos the present is ****!

I think new drivers are welcome at any time, but in this era, we see about 10 average new drivers, when we used to have about 1 or 2 good ones back then. Thompson, Plato, Reid. They all made good impressions in there first season. Now we get Breeze, Wallace, Buxton. Hardly set the world on fire did they.

Maisie · 2 Jan 2004, 12:41 (Ref:825662)

Another question to consider: does the "cult of personality" come about from the driver's natural character, or does some of it stem from being groomed by the media and pushed into playing roles? Would the rivalries in the 90s (Cleland/Soper, Smith/Sytner) have been as fierce if the drivers hadn't known the eyes of the whole country were on them? I'm sure if the media, and by extention the rest of the country, paid a little more attention to touring cars the personalities would emerge more.

KA · 2 Jan 2004, 13:03 (Ref:825677)

Quote:

Originally posted by Carrie
Well, isn't this just a topic to raise people's opinions. It amazes me when people comment about the BTCC being too full of new drivers and say that it would be better with a return of the old names. Just remember that at one time, the old faces were the new drivers. We need new talent coming into any series and surely it's best to have a mix of talented newcomers and established drivers.

I think most people will be most attracted to the time period when they got interested in the BTCC and undoubtedly we saw some fantastic racing in the early nineties which makes people hark back to that as a glory era. As has been said it was certainly on the decline by 1999 and 2000 was just dire, the ST era had to come to an end and the BTCC needed to evolve into what it is today.

Carrie- your comment about people being 'attracted to the time period when they got interested in the BTCC' sums it up for me.

I've followed the BTCC for nearly 20 years, back to the Group A years in the 80's, so have seen the 'glory era' of the early-mid 90's with loads of manufacturer-backed cars and big-name drivers come and go, and in many ways what we have now feels a little like what I used to watch back in the 80's- a small number of factory-backed cars and a lot of independents. The big difference to me is probably that back then the independents often tended to be older drivers who stuck around for years (thinking back to guys like Dennis Leech who had been around the BTCC since the 60's), rather than the young drivers we have now who have graduated from the one-make series or whatever and are aspiring to that elusive factory drive.

As you said, the old faces at one point WERE the new drivers- (I must have seen some of Tim Harvey's earliest BTCC appearances....) and somewhere amongst those young hopefuls we're seeing now might just be the guys who in 10 years time we could be talking about as some of the BTCC greats....

Jonny Apex · 2 Jan 2004, 13:41 (Ref:825707)

Correct. Wow. The (early) Eighties. Gordon Spice, Andy Rouse, Chris Craft. Capris. The debut of the Rover Vitesse (if I recall). All seen from Shaw's Hairpin, Mallory Park. I've also watched the BTCC for many years and without a doubt that era from around '92-'98 was quite exceptional. The sport has changed since then, however, and it is pointless trying to compare now with then. As Alan Gow has already said, you simply cannot have the same manufacturers compete again - some now own others and most won't have two of their brands competing against one another (Volvo/Ford, Nissan/Renault etc). It would need new manufacturers (MG, now Seat) to come in to get back to there being seven or eight makes on the grid. You have to move forward and adjust or you're left standing still.

KA · 2 Jan 2004, 16:06 (Ref:825772)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jonny Apex

I've also watched the BTCC for many years and without a doubt that era from around '92-'98 was quite exceptional.[QUOTE]

I think that's an important point- it WAS exceptional- the BTCC around 1994/5 was probably the only touring car championship in the world to have that degree of manufacturer support in terms of numbers of different manufacturers (what was it- 9 or 10?) competing with factory-backed teams, and I don't think there's ever been any other period in the history of the BTCC when so many manufacturers have been directly involved

[QUOTE] The sport has changed since then, however, and it is pointless trying to compare now with then. As Alan Gow has already said, you simply cannot have the same manufacturers compete again - some now own others and most won't have two of their brands competing against one another (Volvo/Ford, Nissan/Renault etc). It would need new manufacturers (MG, now Seat) to come in to get back to there being seven or eight makes on the grid. You have to move forward and adjust or you're left standing still. [QUOTE]

Exactly - how many of the manufacturers who competed in the BTCC and left it during that time are still competing in touring cars anywhere at the moment? Only BMW and Alfa immediately come to mind, and they've traditionally been two of the manufacturers who have supported touring car racing worldwide more than almost any other. What we've got now isn't perfect, but it's not bad- if we could get BMW or Alfa on board then we'd have pretty much every manufacturer currently running factory-supported touring car efforts (apart from the DTM) in Europe involved....

Phoenix1 · 2 Jan 2004, 16:19 (Ref:825777)

Star names will come after all everyone starts somewhere and as had been pointed out there are alot of companies coming back or looking to come back in the BTCC. You got Turkington, Buxton, Howell etc... all in first or second year and starting to get up there. Every champion and here was a rookie once.

**touringlegend** · 2 Jan 2004, 16:22 (Ref:825779)

Quote:

Originally posted by nicker less
So you saying we should complete forget the history and cast it aside? Are you not atall interested in the BTCC when it was better?

Never lose the ability to think back to times gone by, as yes, they are good, but come on, we have got to move on. If you think the BTCC is poor now compared to the 90's, then forever thinking about those days isn't going to help the current championship, is it ?

It is important that new drivers are given a chance. Yes some drivers these days are far more talented than others (i'm thinking Gavin Pyper as a natural talent who instantly impressed), but look back to when Super Touring was in it's infancy, we still had the big names like Rouse, Harvey etc from the era before, but back then there were the new guys like the Rydell's and Menus of this world.

Craner Curves · 2 Jan 2004, 21:11 (Ref:825946)

Quote:

Originally posted by nicker less
So you saying we should complete forget the history and cast it aside? Are you not atall interested in the BTCC when it was better?

But I have to say when I fancy watching the BTCC, I find my hand going towards the mid 90s tapes, maybe that's because I prefer the living in the mid-90s cos the present is ****!

I think new drivers are welcome at any time, but in this era, we see about 10 average new drivers, when we used to have about 1 or 2 good ones back then. Thompson, Plato, Reid. They all made good impressions in there first season. Now we get Breeze, Wallace, Buxton. Hardly set the world on fire did they.

Not at all. I like the ST era BTCC as much as the next fan, but I also appreciate the fact that the new style BTCC saved the championship. If it wasn't for that, it probably would have been dead in the water for a couple of years now and we'd have no touring car series at all. Not at the level it is now anyway.

I think you're unfair on Buxton there. Sit him in a proper car (not a 307) and he'll do a hell of a lot better. It's just like Minardi signing Wilson, Webber and other such talents from the junior formulae. The car just doesn't do them justice.

Carrie · 2 Jan 2004, 22:07 (Ref:825999)

Quote:

Originally posted by Maisie
Another question to consider: does the "cult of personality" come about from the driver's natural character, or does some of it stem from being groomed by the media and pushed into playing roles? Would the rivalries in the 90s (Cleland/Soper, Smith/Sytner) have been as fierce if the drivers hadn't known the eyes of the whole country were on them? I'm sure if the media, and by extention the rest of the country, paid a little more attention to touring cars the personalities would emerge more.

I guess you could also turn that argument and say do we see less of the personalities today because the drivers are more groomed to be well behaved because that's what the sponsors want.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonny Apex

The (early) Eighties. Gordon Spice, Andy Rouse, Chris Craft. Capris. The debut of the Rover Vitesse (if I recall). All seen from Shaw's Hairpin, Mallory Park.

Okay, I'm jealous

I only started watching on TV around 1988 and had to wait until 1993 before I actually saw the BTCC at a track for the first time.