Homologation papers for Lotus Cortina

[apguy]

Okay, so I'm building an LC replica to FIA Appdx K regs so that:
a) I can compete just about anywhere
and
b) because an Appdx K race car always has a greater monetary value.

So as any good person knows, I called the MSA to get a copy of the homolgation forms. But here's my question. There are at least 3 sets known to the MSA - 1966 Group 2, 1966 Group 1 and 1967 Group 1.

Which set of papers do folks use to build an LC to Appdx K? The MSA are doing some research as apparently the answer was not obvious to them. I'm guessing 1966 Group 1?

[apguy]

Well I'll reply to my own thread.

The MSA have been pretty quick and stated the last 6 sets of homologation papers issued have all been number 1224. So that's the one to build to. They are now trying to match number 1224 to the actual homolgation papers to see if its 67 Grp2, 66 Grp1 or 67 Grp1

[apguy]

Well now I'm proper confused.

1224 is 1963 Group 2 regs. So the last 6 folks to request papers have asked for that set.

5018 is 1965 Group 1

5176 is 1967 Group 1

So why are folks building Appdx K cars to the earliest set of homologation papers for Grp2 and not Grp1?

[josvandeperre]

A few years later on when I was a lad....... Grp 1 was production based saloons and Grp 2 was not - maybe therefore the regs are looser too for 1963 Grp 2 ?

[rogerwills]

I think it depends what you want to do with it and that is all driven by the Age category you select. For example, if you want a period G car then it must have been homologated before 31 December 1965. This drives eligibillity for events. A LC built to these specs is eligible for much more (and worth more money) than a car built into a later period (H) spec.

I'm no expert on this but went through the same exercise recently in deciding my plans for 2007. Its certainly not something where there is a lot of readily available information and guidance!

Good luck.

Roger

[zefarelly]

Andrew

66 group2 I think is what you want, Group1 is the hotrod spec and 1967 is for a MK2

you'll also find a set from 1963 when the car was first homologated, which is amusing as they'd only made about 100 cars then !

there will be racey papers and road papers also, if you get the road papers you won't win any races ;-)

[simon drabble]

What Zef doesnt know about Lotus Cortina's is not worth knowing so would take that as the holy grail on the matter!

[Anuauto]

I always worry on here that people are talking about something else (Historic Identity papers etc) when they write "Homologation Papers" and a reply about FIA period Homologation Papers may not be what is wanted.

Appendix J changed 1.1.66. so new FIA homologation papers were required. Groups 1,2 etc post-66 were something different from 1965 or earlier.
Group 1 in particular went from 1000 to 5000 produced in 12 months. Whilst I have seen the 1275 Cooper S figures, which may or may not have been "creative" for quantities built in 1965 to obtain Gp1 homologation for 1.1.66, the Mk1 Lotus Cortina figures must have been particularly so!

Normal procedure is to start the papers with standard spec, then Gp1 homologated options, then Gp2 options, all under the same number for the one set of papers. That would have been the way for new papers in 66?
Any additions during 66 would have been largely rally-driven, since the BSCC was running to Gp5 then?
It would also have been normal to homologate the MK2 shell as "evolution" on the same papers as the Mk1 - but was it done that way? Homologation of the Mk2 Lotus being delayed (until June?) in 67 suggests not?
New 66 papers would pick up earlier options like mag housings as Gp2 options but the original pre-66 papers (63) would have first listed them. So 66 Gp2 papers shopuld be the definitive ones for highest spec.
Another minefield is that, at that time, lightweight panels etc were covered by FIA Appendix J itself and would not necessarily have to be covered by the individual car/Group homologation papers.

Quite apart from the production quantities, the Lotus Cortina performance on the Gp1-handicapped January 66 Monte Carlo Rally under the new papers (4th and 5th to the 3 works CooperS before lighting disqualification and Elford fighting for the lead earlier) suggests an LSD was also "creatively" Gp1 from day1!

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

What Zef doesnt know about Lotus Cortina's is not worth knowing so would take that as the holy grail on the matter!

I wouldn't say that, there's a lot of train spotters out there, and I do get corrected on a regular basis by some of them!

I know APGuy wants pre66, and as far as I'm aware theres an early varsion and late, late is easier to prep, as theres no A frame, the brakes differ, both are simple really, and both cars are competitive

since manufacturers cheated in the day ( lotus being probably the prime example in getting the cars homologated in the first place on build quantities) and people have been bending the rules ever since, (how else do you explain us motley crew being faster round our circuits now than Jim Clark was then !) its quite understandably a complex and confusing issue!

[phdm]

If you want to compete in the U2TC series the car must be built to period F spec. (up to 1965). Therefore the 1963 homologation papers are what you need.
If you want to compete in the FIA European Challenge for Historic Touring Cars you have the choice of either going for period F or period G (1971). If you choose the latter, be ready for some tough competition with more modern cars.
IMHO, stick with period F.

[zefarelly]

surely the aerflow leaf sprung car was homologated pre66 (just) anything later than that, forget it.

[Anuauto]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

surely the aerflow leaf sprung car was homologated pre66 (just)

At a guess, without seeing the papers, 1.6.65.or 1.7.65. There is some question over whether "KPU382C" appearing at Mont Ventoux (6.6.65?) on a white car was the definitive 382 or a re-identified earlier A bracket car. The Coupe des Alpes (July) was when the Lotus Cortina (with leafs) first came good in rallying, with Elford leading to near the end.

[terence]

Just a little off topic,I was told yesterday of a 2door shell sitting in someones lockup ,anyone interested?

[zefarelly]

I'm a sucker for old rot boxes and sheds in sheds !

[apguy]

Well I now have the 1963 Group 1 homologation papers in front of me. These are definately the ones to have as they have the amendments going up to 1965 included.

To answer a previous Q, 1st April 1965 is the "Variant To Standard Production" that modifies the rear axle from A-frame to radius arms and leafs.

The decrease in wheelbase to 248.29 and increase of front track measurement by 1.27cm also appears on this amendment.

And also to mention that the Airflow radiator grille, dash panel, rear qtr vents, split prop shaft, connecting rod and inlet valve size were amended on a completely different date - 1st Feb 1965

[zefarelly]

Time to get busy Andrew !

[Andy Mesh]

Has anybody any idea if " A Frame " parts are homologated ?
if so - or not has anybody have info as to length of componants , so they can be checked for correct fitment.
the papers i have seen did not show any.
Thanks.
Andy

[zefarelly]

Andy, your best bet is to find someone with a car and measure, the radius arms pick up the front leaf spring mounts, and the front of the a frame on lugs welded underneath

Terry at LCS will relieve you of hard earnt for A frames etc

most cars I've seen aren't original or standard anyway so I wouldn't worry tooooo much.

A frame is homologated on early cars (63-June65 ish )

[GORDON STREETER]

While on this thread is it true (as a few sports cars) that there are more
Lotus Cortina's now than were made ? I dont think all those 1200 2 door shopping cars all went to the scrapyards!

[Andy Mesh]

Thanks Zef.
Id heard that LCS were not making any more , is there anybody else you know off ? , ive been asked by a couple of drivers as to where they could purchase one ,
Has any one out there got one i could get some measurments off ? thanks

Andy

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by Andy Mesh

Thanks Zef.
Id heard that LCS were not making any more ,

Hi Andy,

No he's not, he was talking about tooling up for them last year, but it came to nowt I'm afraid. There are a couple of options open to me for having one fabricated, but without sight of the original (photos would do) and it's measurements it's a tough call. Notably I think even a replica would have to 'look' like a pattern part to pass muster.

Another guy has been talking of tooling up, but again you get the impression it's not something you could rely on if you want to get on track..

Any photo's would be great - or where you could get one (reliably) would be even better!

Cheers

Stacy

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

While on this thread is it true (as a few sports cars) that there are more
Lotus Cortina's now than were made ? I dont think all those 1200 2 door shopping cars all went to the scrapyards!

I've heard that myself yes. Harder to fiddle the axle hump and other bits of course, but yes, I believe there are a lot of GT's in drag!

Stacy.

[zefarelly]

which explains why its so hard to find a decent GT !

theres nothing very complicated about any of it to be honest, I know someone whos got originals so if people where genuinely interested I'd draw it all up and get prices done . . .as I've done with other bits, but as I'm a GT man I wouldn't want it for myself, hence not having done it yet

my opinion personally is stick to leaf springs, just as fast, more reliable and a lt cheaper !

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

theres nothing very complicated about any of it to be honest, I know someone whos got originals so if people where genuinely interested I'd draw it all up and get prices done . . .

my opinion personally is stick to leaf springs, just as fast, more reliable and a lt cheaper !

Hi,

If that's a serious commitment please let me know - I know of at least 1 other and I will take 2..

Leaf springs are certainly the easy way out, but the reason I'm going this way is that IMHO leafs will not be quicker ultimately, and there simply isn't the level of adjustment on the way there either.

Cheers

Stacy

[zefarelly]

I agree theoretiacally, but I know some of the quicker FiA guys ditched A frames for leaves, and reckoned they where quicker which is why I said it.

Stacy, pm me and I'll see if I can 'borrow' some bits to measure and draw up, I know plenty of people who could fabricate the bits, but I can't vouch for the price !

you can even buy humps for the boot off the shelf . . . .my personal opinion is there isn't a top spec original LC racing in the world, theyre all reshells, and as Gordon suggested, theres more registered now than there ever have been, with GT prices hitting 10k its easy to see why