What does rallycross need?

Cryos · 3 Oct 2003, 22:01 (Ref:739869)

What dose rallycross need?

Well, alot of people say rallycross needs this that and the other so why not start a thread on it?! Like most rallycross websites Rallycross Ireland activly seeks to promote rallycross (especialy irish rallycross).

However this time we are prepaired to go that bit further, however before we start any big advertising campains or do anything of the sort we want to know what you think the sport needs!!

Grunt · 4 Oct 2003, 11:25 (Ref:740233)

Good thinking....

To start the ball rolling (in no particular order):

1.Better T.V coverage, (dont get me wrong I think m&m are doing a good job, just not showing enough)

2.Croft British rounds to be run on a Saturday (for obvious reasons)

3.Less Politics & favoritism

4.Better sanitory facilities at tracks such as Blyton/Anglesey (spectators seem to remember the bad things)

5.Better press coverage, at the moment highly entertaining drivers seem to get no mention just because they are second.

6.No turbo restrictors (for british rounds)

7.Restriction on numbers in minicross/stockhatch (about what we have now is sufficient)

8.More supercars

9.More modified

10.Better organisation (E.g. was there really a need to keep everbody waiting for 15 minutes for the supercar jump start decision at blyton to be quoshed?)

11.Colin Mcrae in a one off event (perhaps in Dermots focus)

......I'm sure i'll think of loads more, but that'll do for now

Grunt

Grunt · 4 Oct 2003, 19:29 (Ref:740523)

errr and probably the most important.........

12. Keep Arthur

Grunt

RoyG · 5 Oct 2003, 21:28 (Ref:741337)

Some thoughts about Grunt's ideas re. "What Rallycross needs"

1.Better T.V coverage, (dont get me wrong I think m&m are doing a good job, just not showing enough)

The Greenlight deal ends after 2003 – hopefully negotiations are underway to ensure continued/improved coverage for 2004 onwards. This is only likely to happen if Rallycross presents a rather more “professional” image. The sport can only be attractive and exciting for TV and spectators if it’s attractive and exciting for competitors.

2.Croft British rounds to be run on a Saturday (for obvious reasons)

For sure – no way can any event run between noon and dusk in Winter!!!!

3.Less Politics & favoritism

Sure – the same rules should apply to all. How can Chris Bellamy be chucked off the Lydden Superfinal grid for a push start, but the Blyton Superfinal can be held up for a non-starting Focus?? It’s up to organisers to ensure fair play for all.

4.Better sanitory facilities at tracks such as Blyton/Anglesey (spectators seem to remember the bad things)

Bit of a Catch-22 here – Blyton won’t get the same hire fees as Croft/Brands/Lydden until the facilities are equivalent, but the improvements won’t happen without a decent profit!! Most drivers rate the Blyton circuit as one of the best. If they keep going back, the facilities should improve. The burgers are pretty good!!

5.Better press coverage, at the moment highly entertaining drivers seem to get no mention just because they are second.

Seems that only the top 3 Supercar drivers get any decent coverage. It would be nice for all classes to get proper coverage. Maybe the 2004 BTRDA Series will give the rest a bit of press coverage.

6.No turbo restrictors (for british rounds)

Got to disagree here – just look at the reliability rate of Supercars this year! Only 4 supercars managed to start the Blyton Superfinal – only 2 finished without a problem!

7.Restriction on numbers in minicross/stockhatch (about what we have now is sufficient)#

Please remember that without Stock Hatch, rallycross in UK would be pretty much dead & buried! Juniors are what’s really squeezing the schedule at Championship meetings – only 5 cars per race! They are running up to 14 races per meeting and about as exciting as watching grass grow!

8.More supercars

At around £50,000 minimum, it’s pretty unlikely that any significant increase will happen under present regs.

9.More modified

Again, under present regs to race a competitive car is going to cost a big bag of dosh – reputedly £85,000 for a Micra! Hopefully the proposed ModProd/Modified-B/EconoMod class will allow some interesting racing without breaking the bank. The details of this “sub-class” need careful thought. If they get it right a good number of Stock Hatch drivers will move up to Modified.

10.Better organisation (E.g. was there really a need to keep everbody waiting for 15 minutes for the supercar jump start decision at blyton to be quoshed?)

Hear, hear! Jump starts are decided by a Judge of Fact – so NO DISCUSSION!!! Also better time management throughout a meeting, particularly early in the day – ensuring that practice starts on time, ensuring that breakdown recovery doesn’t take forever, ensuring that latecomers to the grid simply DON’T RACE etc. etc.

11.Colin Mcrae in a one off event (perhaps in Dermots focus)

Why just a one-off – he’s out of a job isn’t he??!!

errr and probably the most important.........

12. Keep Arthur

Arthur Debenham and the Rallycross Trust have been the only consistent factors in Rallycross over the last couple of decades. It would be a tragedy if either vanished from the scene in any sort of unpleasant circumstances. If Arthur does retire there should be the mother of a party!!

Further thoughts –

It would be nice if the various factions of Rallycross could work more effectively together. It’s obvious that BRDA, DDMC, BARC & Rallycross Trust and others all want to promote the future of Rallycross in UK, but don’t seem to have any overall strategy for ensuring the future of the sport.

Those with ideas – make sure you are heard. Those who decide – make sure you listen.

bigted · 6 Oct 2003, 12:06 (Ref:741808)

I think the last statement about everyone working together is the most important thing that rallycross needs

winnie · 6 Oct 2003, 20:16 (Ref:742300)

Response to Roy G's response to Grunt

1. Better TV - yes

2. Race on Saturday and Sunday - don't agree. Spectators do not want to watch two days racing. Restrict Stock hatch to two to three grids and no Minicross or Junior racing. Both these class's can race in BTRDA championship. This will leave three class's, Supercars, modified and stock hatch with about three heats each. Total of about 34 decent quality races including A and B finals for each class plus super final. This will fit in one day's racing. Happy spectators, drivers, officials and film crew, etc.

3. Less politics - totaly agree. If Doran or Gollop have a problem then races get held up. This is not fair. Have you noticed that the top supercar drivers are always late to the grid while their competitors cars over-heat and tyres cool down. If they are not in the dummy grid in time they should not be allowed to race.

4. Better bogs - Most tracks are poor. If the tracks get too 'posh' then they dump rallycross, just like Brands did.
I'm happy to p..s in the hedge.

5. Better press coverage - If the racing is poor and boring (like most races this year mainly due to stock hatch) then it doesn't deserve any press coverage. Better quality racing - better press coverage.

6.Turbo restrictors - introduce them because of the European cars. There still bloody quick and should be more reliable. Might even attract a few europeon cars to Lydden.

7. Restrict Stock hatch, junior and minicross - See my comments above. I hate all of these classes. I know they are impotant but they are dominating every round and degrading the prestige of the British Championship.

8. More supercars - why are people spending £100,000 doing go cart racing, or £200,000 doing formula ford, or £500,000 for Formula three or top level rallying. Why can't rallycross attract this sort of money! For £100,00 you could compete at the top in rallycross. The BRDA need to attract existing rally competitors and show them they can have more fun for less money. It shouldn't be too hard. Stock hatch is not helping with the image of rallycross.

9. More modified - modified racing has always been the heart of British rallycross. The current rules are pretty good but in my opinion they need fine tuning.
a. ban sequential gearboxes or more than 5 gears. This just adds to the expense and does not improve racing.
b. ban tyre warmers
c. introduce minimum weight limit's of say 900 kg for over 2 litre, 800kg for over 1.6 litre, 700 kg for over 1.3 litre etc. This will make older cars that are sitting in peoples garages competitive and would boost grid numbers.
d. maybee intoduce rev limiters or control tyre.

10. Better organisation - it must be hard trying to arrange 65 plus races in such a short amount of time. Most of the administration staff and marshals are unpaid and without them no racing would happen.

11. Why wouldn't Colin McRea not do rallycross. Has anyone asked him - i doubt it. Surely someone at the BRDA could put a deal together to rent Dermot's car for a year. This would cost say £100,000 - which is peanuts for the publicity. I'm sure a sponser could be found, TV might even pay for coverage and just think what this would do for rallycross. Maybee attract other top rally drivers, proper TV coverage and even a couple of manufacturers.

12. Arther Debenham needs to be bought back asap. Without Arther rallycross will never be the same. The people at the BRDA that are responsible for his 'retirement' should be thrown out of rallycross. Who were they!

Upside Down Bug · 6 Oct 2003, 20:34 (Ref:742315)

In addition to the comments above, (not sure that I agree with them all), I would add improvements in communication, both on race day and between events.

Unfortunately, from the comments above, and from other comments made to me following events, it appears that the real reasons for things happening are not being communicated to speccys. This allows for conclusions to be made and accordingly rumours to breed.

I am confident that there is a clear direction in Rallycross in this country, but it seems it needs to be communicated better and, totally agree, everybody needs to work together. If they do, I think rallycross will achieve the status in British Motorsport it deserves.

RoyG · 6 Oct 2003, 20:46 (Ref:742323)

Winnie -

Point 1 - we're agreed.

Point 2 - I'm not suggesting 2-day meetings at Croft, but Saturday instead of Sunday (as Sunday meetings can only start at noon).

Point 3 - agreed.

Point 4 - I can cope with a hedge too, if the racing's good!!

Point 5 - There has been some good racing in all classes (not always!!). Report ALL good racing.

Point 6 - Yep, with restrictors there may be better reliablity and some European competitors.

Point 7 - With a separate Clubmans' series next year the "lesser" classes will have some decent track time.

Point 8 - High budget competitors will only defect to Rallycross if they can be confident of decent, well-run events.

Point 9 - Maybe the new "sub-class" will help to increase the numbers of Modified competitors.

Point 10 - Sure it's not easy to organise a day's racing, but there is plenty of room for improvement.

Point 11 - Not a serious proposition for Colin to do the whole series, but a guest drive or two would be a brilliant crowd-puller.

Point 12- We're agreed!!!

Cheers,

Roy

moyzer · 7 Oct 2003, 12:01 (Ref:742883)

Colin has already driven Dermott's car and said it was the fastest thing he'd ever driven (expect an F1 I think) so he must have had an introductory contact to the sport. Getting him the backing to do an event would be an interesting one for the media boys, I'm sure. And it has to be said that associating him with Rallycross may add that vital bit of glamour!! Remember whem Delacour ran Schance's RS200 in '92???

Bob Irvine · 8 Oct 2003, 07:01 (Ref:743672)

only been to a couple of meetings but i would have prefered a couple more laps per race

Grunt · 8 Oct 2003, 19:29 (Ref:744437)

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob Irvine
only been to a couple of meetings but i would have prefered a couple more laps per race

This is somthing i have thought about in the past however,
i see at least 4 problems with this:

1. Did you see the state of some of the cars after just 4-5 laps? This could prove expensive for competitors!

2. The Supercars and modifed class are pushing out some serious b.h.p, and reliability would become a factor, again expense is an issue.
(although i still maintain that the supercars should be restrictor free, these cars are simply awesome, some can outstrip a tornado jet and formula 1 car to 100mph!!! we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Supercars are amongst the quickest accelerating cars on the planet!!)

3. Not enough time in the day to run extra laps for everybody!!

4. Most cars have extremely small fuel tanks that have to be especially made (saving excess weight!), again expense would prove unpopular.

Grunt

Come on people, the future of our sport is at stake here get your friends on.....and their friends!!!!!!

Upside Down Bug · 8 Oct 2003, 20:14 (Ref:744471)

That's the second time recently I've heard someone suggest longer races. Grunt's comments are very valid. The rule of thumb for race length is three minutes per supercar race. That's normally 3/4 laps of most circuits.

Personally I think the race length is part of the appeal of rallycross, lots of fast action.

What do people think about meeting format?

bigted · 9 Oct 2003, 05:34 (Ref:744783)

Well, with so many races i know it keeps my full attention.

**BertMk2** · 9 Oct 2003, 07:59 (Ref:744858)

Short races are OK - provided the gaps between aren't longer than the races themselves. 60 ish races in one day is excellent stuff but everything does need to run smoothly. The last Lydden round seemed to be well organised, there were a number of red flags throughout the day and a lot of cars to be recovered but all heats and finals were run (the only delay was the much discussed wait for Doran).

The running order could do with mixing up a bit - 5 rounds of stock hatch in a row can be a bit repetitive (although mixing things up could cause problems - vastly different time periods between heats for individual drivers - allows more/less time to fix problems giving unfair advantage/diadvantage).

Bob Irvine · 9 Oct 2003, 14:48 (Ref:745312)

As i said ive only been 2 a couple of meetings so therefore perhalps im not qualified to answer,but after every race my sons and i agreed longer races would have made for a better day and after all,isnt it people like me with kids that Rallyx should be trying to attract?

**BertMk2** · 9 Oct 2003, 15:34 (Ref:745370)

The race length for the supercars is the one we discuss most - they're awesome machines but are on track for a very short time - you always want more! The trouble is the cars just aren't capable of doing many more laps (they're running right on the edge of reliabilty to get the maximum power possible).

I have to admit I prefer short(ish) race formats anyway (not just for rallycross), stuff like the GT's that do races measured in hours or whatever are ok for a few laps and then I just tend to nod off. Touring car races are about the absolute maximum I can keep awake for but there's no way rallycross cars could run for that long (the top end cars anyway).

I think the small number of cars in each heat/final (8 max?) also requires the races to be short - if they were much longer you could end up with cars spread out all round the track, keeping it short means there's no time to run and hide.

Stephen H · 9 Oct 2003, 23:54 (Ref:745795)

A Grand Prix this weekend would have been nice!

Point 12 - The sport does need Arthur

Tracey · 12 Oct 2003, 00:28 (Ref:747685)

Sorry guys, but I think decent facilities are a big boost - not everyone has the appropriate 'apparatus' to nip behind a hedge (especially if in overalls!)

Also, if we're trying to get families in, we will want mums and daughters etc as well as dads and sons!

Good organisation throughout - more quick decisions, instead of pandering to the big names. If they want to challenge decisions, maybe they should put their money where their mouth is! In the instance of the red flag two laps into the race for a jump start, wouldn't a time penalty have been better, leaving any discussion to occur after the race (would have looked more professional, too!). Also unbiased officials (not saying the current lot aren't!!!)

More venues - no circuits visited between Blyton and Brands Hatch, so a large part of the country has a long trip to see the true Rallycross, as opposed to the TV edited version.

And a purely selfish one - if we must have grid girls in skimpy clothes, can they be accompanied by young, fit blokes in equally skimpy outfits?????

Needless · 14 Oct 2003, 18:20 (Ref:751197)

Would be nice to see a few extra cars in Supercars. It was particularly disappoinitng that the GP was axed this year - the GP last year was one of the best meetings I went to last year with the large grids of Supercars. Hopefully, the GP will be back next year.

Does anyone know if John Haffey will be returning next year? (Helmut Holfeld wasnt as strong as I expected this year in the ex-Haffey car)

I understand that Chris Evans will be driving an Astra with another Astra to follow later in the year. Does anyone know if any other additional cars are expected next year? (an ex-Pailler 206, ex-Hanson Xsara and/or ex-Eklund SAAB would be nice).

PS Agree with the return of Arthur

Cryos · 14 Oct 2003, 19:40 (Ref:751301)

Well, it seems that everyone feels the same about the current running of the championship. In ireland we are due to go over to European Rules for our 2004 Championship, based on my own Preception of entrys for next year (along with comments from drivers and fans) it appears that the supercar grid once again gets bigger in the irish championship. Also modified Continues to Get bigger, nearly all classes in the irish championship have gotten bigger over the past year.

If the U.K went over to Euro Rules it would see the championship also get bigger (probably bigger in a shorter space of time because of the number of people there) and many of the Problems on the agenda would be sorted.

The Thing about Colin mc Rae or some other well known motorsport personality is not too hard to accomplish, as dermot carnegie knows many big rally drivers.

The GP would be more secure and would have great entrys if rules were adopted, i would however keep the Supercar GP and the Internations to two diffrent events.

With the euro-rules restrictors would increase the lifespan of supercar engines and would enable longer laps (i would like to see longer finals) however it may not be possible then to let everyone have their 3 runs (4 or even 5 if your good enough

) in such a decreased amount of time..

However ive taken this info onbored along with everyones comments, we will inform you guys when and if we take actions...

Cryos · 14 Oct 2003, 19:40 (Ref:751302)

oh oh oh and i forgot, ill definatly look into Grid Girls

Tracey · 15 Oct 2003, 12:32 (Ref:752075)

And hunky grid boys, too I hope for us girlies!

Cryos · 15 Oct 2003, 18:27 (Ref:752534)

Naturaly

Hog · 16 Oct 2003, 15:01 (Ref:753362)

SkyRedButton - so what's wrong with us hunky marshals on the startline then?

Tracey · 18 Oct 2003, 17:59 (Ref:755269)

The overalls aren't exactly revealing or flattering - and if you guys can get scantily clad grid girls as well as us sexy female marshals, why shouldn't we get scantily clad guys????