Courage numbering conventions

[isynge]

A nice two page spread in the July issue of Le Mans Racing covering all the Courages to have raced at Le Mans over the last 25 years slightly piqued my curiousity about a question that's been in the back of my mind for a while. What is/was the thought process behind the numbering of the cars? At the start it makes sense, with C01 obviously being the first Courage (or Cougar if you like), and now the LCx0 being an LMP1 and LCx5 being an LMP2 makes sense, but in between it's a bit headscratching.

In short it looks like...

1982 C01
1983 C01b
1984 C02
1985 C02
1986 C12
1987 C20
1988 C12, C20, C22
1989 C20, C22
1990 C24S
1991 C26S
1992 C28S
1993 C28S, C30LM
1993 C30LM
1994 C28S, C32LM
1995 C34, C41
1996 C36
1997 C36, C41
1998 C51
1999 C52
2000 C52, C60
2001 C60
2002 C60
2003 C60, C65
2004 C65
2005 C60, C65
2006 LC70, C65
2007 LC70, LC75

It's perfectly possible too that I've missed some in this list too.

Any ideas?

[canam]

It is even more confusing because in the early days, there were not that many new tubs. A single tub, therefore, had lives of a wide variety of models--particularly in the Group C days.

I believe Yves Courage has his first car (C01) in a container in his workshop. It would be interesting to find method in the 'madness???'

[The359]

C50 through C52 are all variants of the same basic chassis. I believe the same applies to the C20 through C28.

C60 and C65 share the same chassis, but have modifications to make them LMP1 or LMP2. Same applies to LC70 and LC75.

The C12 was his first car with a Porsche engine, which I believe was a modification of his existing C02. Hence the jump from C0x to C1x.

[minimangler]

Don't forget there's a blurry line between courage and pescarolo

[isynge]

Originally Posted by minimangler

Don't forget there's a blurry line between courage and pescarolo

Absolutely, although I'd argue that the line is getting less blurry all the time. In any case, once you get to the C60 the system seems to be emerging. That said, looking at Racing Sportscars you can get a hint of the sort of tangled web that emerges, with the Pescarolo entered C50 of 1999 apparantly having the provenance of both a C41 and a C51 - as I said, it was feasible I'd missed some in the list (going off the spread in LMR).

That said, we may be getting somewhere.

As The359 points out, there's some method to be found here. So, situation could be seen as

Series 1: C0x with a DFL
Series 2: C12, a C0x with a Porsche engine and incremental updates
Series 3: C2x, next generation Group C car with incremental updates, Porsche engined
Series 4: C3x/C4x/C5x open sports cars, primarily Porsche engined - is there a differentiation between WSC aimed ones and Le Mans aimed ones? I seem to recall one Courage falling victim to the same problems that befell the Porsche WSC95 - some reference to how Courage would "love" to race this car in the US but couldn't. Equally there was a slightly abortive Courage campaign in the States during the mid/late 1990s (C41 Chevrolet???)
Series 5: C60/C65 "modern" LMPs, could be extended to include the Pescarolo variants - all sorts of engines.
Series 6: LC7x - where we are now

Of course I suppose I could go and shell out for the 25 years of Yves Courage book - but that might just spoil all the fun...

[minimangler]

my head is spinning.

[AMICALEMANS]

I guess that the C12 was the C02 fitted with the Porsche Engine. The C20 was a new body...

[The359]

Originally Posted by AMICALEMANS

I guess that the C12 was the C02 fitted with the Porsche Engine. The C20 was a new body...

Most likely a new chassis, actually.

C30 was probably another all new chassis, as was C40, C50, C60, and LC70. Anything with a digit at the end other then zero was an alteration of the basic chassis design.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by The359

Most likely a new chassis, actually.

C30 was probably another all new chassis, as was C40, C50, C60, and LC70. Anything with a digit at the end other then zero was an alteration of the basic chassis design.

This would appear to make sense, until I found a reference on Courage's site to the C41 being the first carbon-fibre Courage - and indeed I can't find a reference to there being a C40 anywhere.

I think this all needs a degree more thought and perhaps a bit of research and consolidation of what can be pulled together. I'll try and consolidate things a bit more - and perhaps use a wider range of sources than the aforementioned two page spread, and see where we get to!

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by minimangler

Don't forget there's a blurry line between courage and pescarolo

Not really , the Pescarolo chassis was always based on the C60 ..... except for this year i heard . Its supposed to be a completely new chassis , but I did hear that it was also a modded C60 chassis ?

It was only a bodywork and hardware issue that prevented Pescarolo from calling their chassis a C60 all along , but I suspect Henri didnt want that anymore anyway . He did call it a C60 EVO for a few years though .

[The359]

A bit more research now, looking at the chassis used at Le Mans...

* C01 was a unique chassis
* C02 was a unique chassis
* C12 used in 1985 is a modified C02 (C02 #02), C12 in 1986 is a new chassis (C12 #01)
* 1987 C20 is modified C12 #01
* 1988 C20B is a unique chassis (C20B #01)
* 1988 C22 is a unique chassis (C22 #01)
* 1989 C22LMs are both a modified C12 (still based on C02 #02) and a new car (C22 #04)
* 1990 C24Ss are all unique chassis
* 1991 C26Ss are all unique chassis but their numbers come after those used by C24s. However one C26S is a modified C22LM (STILL based on C02 #02)
* 1992 C28Ss are all unique chassis numbers, again higher then C26S.
* 1993 C30LMs are all unique chassis numbers, again higher then C28Ss
* 1994 C32LMS are all apparently unique chassis numbers, but some are repeat numbers from C30LMs.
* 1994 C41 is the WSC car. All new chassis, first open-cockpit design.
* 1995 C34 also claims a unique chassis number, but I believe it is a C32LM with the roof taken off.
* 1996 C36s are also apparently unique chassis numbers, but use the same numbers as some C32LMs.
* 1998 C51 was a unique chassis
* Pescarolo's 1999 "C50" is actually a C41 with new bodywork and rechristened C50.
* 1999 C52 is an evolved C51 with Nissan engines.
* 2000 C60 is a new chassis
* 2003 C65 is a modified C60 chassis
* 2006(?) LC70 is a new chassis, with LC75 being a modified chassis.

Hopefully this all makes sense. I'm mostly going off of the chassis numbers listed on Racingsportscars.com

So apparently the early cars all had similar enough chassis that they could all be easily swapped.

[The359]

This page:
http://wsrp.ic.cz/chassis/chassis_courage.html

Claims that C02 #02 was modified into a C12, sold to someone in the United States and modified before being returned to Courage and modified into a C22, then C26.

Besides C02 #02, all the C22s, C24s, C26s, and C28s are based on the same chassis, with the bodywork merely updated.

C30, C32, and C36 also all apparently share the same chassis, but I do not know if it is different from the C2xs. The chassis number sequence does come after the C2xs, with C2xs #01 through #08, and C3xs being #09 through #13.

C41 is a unique chassis, C51s/52s are also a different unique chassis.

The same numbering applies to the C60s, with C60s having chassis numbers #01 through #05, while C65s are #06 through #14.