Changes In Eng. Specs, For Road Racing?

[GP Racer]

It seems pretty likely that the IRL will go road racing in 05.

We know that mods are already planned for the chassis, but how does the series plan to taylor the 3.0 engines to handle the road courses, or will they have to taylor them at all? I would think that the torque curve and power requirement for the roads would be far different than whats required for the flat-out oval runs.

Has anyone heard anything on this matter?

[gttouring]

good question
I would think that the elavating speeds which lead to the engine size reduction, would not be an issue on road courses, and as we see Turbo 3 litre V8's (2.65 rounded up)
are a near perfect motor for all application in open wheel oval or street- before IRL launches into the streets, perhaps a merger may be forced upon them- by first each series adopting a good common package- after all T.George before the split did wish to change the board to a triumverate, where he was involved- I bet if it was george and Champcar Extrodinairre Mr. Forsythe, they may come to a good middle ground- although history ahs failed to show this as possible.
I bet they will stick with the motor as a 3.0 V8 NA and simply alter the gear ratios, i am certain the engine would handle it fine.

[marcus]

that what i would have said , im no mechanic or anything but gear ratio's would be the first thing to change to see if they could handle road conditions

[jjspierx]

Originally posted by gttouring
after all T.George before the split did wish to change the board to a triumverate, where he was involved- I bet if it was george and Champcar Extrodinairre Mr. Forsythe, they may come to a good middle ground- although history ahs failed to show this as possible.

Actually gttouring, what Mr. George wanted was a 5 person board, with all of the members selected by the IMS, or himeself. CART rejected this idea, but they did grant TG a non-voting membership on the CART board. After Andrew Craig was brought on, was the final straw for TG and he immediately resigned from the board. He was against Craig's ideas for further internationalizing the series.

[gttouring]

so a 5 person board headed up by George, Penske, Forsythe, Mario Andretti (needed for equal non pertisanship and his love for racing as it should be not simply TG's vision)
and Someone asigned by george, himself would that work? or is something screwy

[GP Racer]

Who really knows what would work anymore?

The whole situation has probably deteriorated beyond repair. I'm afraid this has become a death match now, with one party waiting for the other to die. And someone will die here.

So you think gear ratio changes would do it? Could be, I'm not sure either, but I would think a camshaft change would help, in order to give it better low and mid-range power.

[Snrub]

To be more viable they'll need to do something to get more mid-range power. Then again judging by Dario's comments at Homestead maybe the roadcourse package isn't going to be the biggest problem.

[gttouring]

what did dario say?

[Snrub]

On speed he was surprisingly hostile and said something to the effect that he thought the IRL had made a big mistake with the new package and that they basically run flat at homestead. (I'm not over exagerating his comments, I was quiet surprised he'd say that) The 3.0L engines come after Indy so I'm not sure what they were testing. If he's got a problem with the while package with a 3.5L 700hp engine, he's not going to be happy with the 3.0L 600hp. If they don't do something to reduce the grip, even IRL diehard fans will have a problem with it!

[Hazza]

He probably just annoyed that instead of driving round in circles he could be doing something serious about a Champ Car title.

[climb]

Strange!
Nothing reported about that on the IRL website

[GP Racer]

Snrub, do you have a link to that, because I didn't find any comments from him at all on the Homestead testing.

Guys who did make comments, like Hornish, Carpenter, Barron, and Sharp, all seemed very pleased with there results and they all definetely liked the new Homestead track, and all thought it would provide better racing and 3 wide action.

[rustyfan]

I think he meant an interview on SpeedTV, rather than an official post-testing press conference.

[Testure]

CART uses different boost levels for ovals and road-courses, right? Since that's not an option with an NA engine, anyone know what, if anything, the IRL's gonna do for the differing power requirements? A 600 horsepower car isn't going to travel too fast on a road-course.

[Snrub]

No I don't have a link. Go back in time and watch speed TV. I know you highly distrust me, but I have never fabricated anything on ten-tenths. There's a big difference between something happening, intepretation and opinion.
Fact: Dario said some negative comments about the testing at homestead. On the same broadcast others did not.
Opinion: I am surprised by Dario's comments, the IRL has been good at keeping everyone saying positive things.

You're right Testure, CART runs less boost for ovals. 600hp is even less on a street course.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Snrub
No I don't have a link. Go back in time and watch speed TV. I know you highly distrust me, but I have never fabricated anything on ten-tenths. There's a big difference between something happening, intepretation and opinion.
Fact: Dario said some negative comments about the testing at homestead. On the same broadcast others did not.
Opinion: I am surprised by Dario's comments, the IRL has been good at keeping everyone saying positive things.

You're right Testure, CART runs less boost for ovals. 600hp is even less on a street course.

Snrub, we've had our differences, especially during all the off-season drama of the buy-out, but I don't "highly distrust you", and I certainly didn't think you were lying.

Your post as to what was said by Dario and where he said it was somewhat unclear to me, so I asked for a link so I could read about it, but rustyfan cleared that up, telling me it was Speed Channel.

I assure you, it was nothing sinister on my part.

[Tim Northcutt]

Notes For All On This Issue:

When the new engine specs were announced, the issues you have raised (affect on road racing for 2005, etc.) were raised by the reporter (I think it was Curt Cavin) from the Indy Star...

Here is what I remember from the article:

The reduction from the 3.5 L to 3.0 will be done a little with reducing the stroke and moreso with the cam sizes....there were considered to be relatively cheap to do for the manufacturees, yet still effective to reduce the speeds....

the manufacturers were aware that they would need to develop more lower & mid-range torque when the IRL announced its intention to run road courses by 2005....and reps from Toyota and Honda both commented that they did not think the reduced engine size would alter their approaches in the torque area of the equation...

added lower end torque also can be obtained by reducing the diameter of the intake openings on the heads...by doing so, it creates a higher velocity of the fuel and air mixture in the chamber and thus better combustion efficiency and power at the lower end and middle range of the rpm curve...

Those are minor changes to an already existing package...gearing them properly and getting a reliable gairbox that mates up to those engines will be another matter, but that can be solved via testing...

Finally, the three engine manuafcturers (Honda, Toyota, and Cosworth) involved here all have extensive experience in building powerplants and gearbox packages for road racing...it is not like they ae in uncharted waters here....

These issues are going to work out fine....

[GP Racer]

Thanks Tim, thats the first solid story I've heard on the engine changes for road racing.

[Snrub]

There's nothing wrong with what you've said Tim, but will IRL have a two basic engine setups, street/road vs. oval? If not, what manufacturer would compromise performance at 10+ ovals for 1-2 street/road races?

You guys are going to have to trust me on this one: Reducing the involvement of the driver does not produce interesting racing. To challange top level drivers something fairly dramatic must happen in order to seperate their abilities. The challange in racing is to carry the most average momemtum. If you don't lose much momentum in a corner, no one can conserve momentum substantially better than anyone else. In 2003 corner speeds were not substantially different from end of straight speeds (CART too).

This is the problem that Dario was complaining about this being WORSE for this year. I'm not sure which engine he was running at the time (anyone know?). But here's a scenerio for you: If you take the same amount of grip and reduce the ability of the car to reach a greater speed at the end of the straight then they don't need to reduce speed to get through the corner.

I've discussed this in the past and I don't think anyone here takes me seriously. I'll be honest, in one way I wanted the IRL to get better, so I would want to watch it more. On the other hand I'm really angry at TG right now. I do not see good things comming out of this new engine package for ovals or street/road.

[boom boom]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
Finally, the three engine manuafcturers (Honda, Toyota, and Cosworth) involved here all have extensive experience in building powerplants and gearbox packages for road racing...

Does any body know if Cowsworth is goign to keep on suppling engines for the Chevy Powerplant this year (and for how long)? Is GM going to build their own engines again for this this season (to use from the start or sometime mid season maybe, or not at all this year)?

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by Snrub
There's nothing wrong with what you've said Tim, but will IRL have a two basic engine setups, street/road vs. oval? If not, what manufacturer would compromise performance at 10+ ovals for 1-2 street/road races?

You guys are going to have to trust me on this one: Reducing the involvement of the driver does not produce interesting racing. To challange top level drivers something fairly dramatic must happen in order to seperate their abilities. The challange in racing is to carry the most average momemtum. If you don't lose much momentum in a corner, no one can conserve momentum substantially better than anyone else. In 2003 corner speeds were not substantially different from end of straight speeds (CART too).

This is the problem that Dario was complaining about this being WORSE for this year. I'm not sure which engine he was running at the time (anyone know?). But here's a scenerio for you: If you take the same amount of grip and reduce the ability of the car to reach a greater speed at the end of the straight then they don't need to reduce speed to get through the corner.

I've discussed this in the past and I don't think anyone here takes me seriously. I'll be honest, in one way I wanted the IRL to get better, so I would want to watch it more. On the other hand I'm really angry at TG right now. I do not see good things comming out of this new engine package for ovals or street/road.

It's not like Champ Cars' package is optimized these days either though, considering how flawed their aerodynamics are, making it extremely hard for a driver to tuck in behind in a slipstream and do a proper pass.

The future IndyCar package might not be great right off the bat, but it certainly can't provide any less passing than what we see in Champ Cars. Or saw, rather, in 2003 - the "Press to Pass" button they are supposedly using for 2004 might improve on things, and the proposed standing starts will make the starts a lot more interesting.

Not to mention we shouldn't see 2-3 aborted starts almost per race either

[Testure]

Originally posted by boom boom
Does any body know if Cowsworth is goign to keep on suppling engines for the Chevy Powerplant this year (and for how long)?

How did that work anyway? Did Cosworth engineers wear Chevy overalls at races? Did Cosworth hand over the details about how the engines work to Chevy? Or did they just provide the actual engines?

[GP Racer]

Snub, you say that IRL racing as it stands now is just not enough to keep top-level drivers interested. I beg to differ.

If going around a super speedway at 220MPH or so, and tucking in behind another car, which they do with regularity with there aero package, getting a draft, and then shooting around for a pass, sometimes going 3 wide, with multiple cars involved, is not enough to keep a driver interested, than maybe they need to look for another series, where the parades are much more orderly, and theres not so much action and passing going on to distract them.

CART is all about driver involvment, but that being said, why are so many of there races a bore?

[Tim Northcutt]

I don't agree with your points schrub....

The key to speed and power is torque plus gearing -- i.e. torque multiplication....

making the modifications to the engines will result in packages that will be plenty quick on the ovals....not much different in speeds than we had in 1998 and to some degree, 1999...and having a wider torque band will not hurt the engines in relaibaility on the ovals, either...because they are shortening the stroke as part of the displacement reduction...

The key will be the gearboxes...they may have an "oval gearbox" and a "Road Course Gearbox" package for teams to use, so that they do not compromise one form of racing for the other.......

My only gripe is that the changes that are being made are limiting the manufacturers' abilities to supply new teams or more cars with engines, etc....

I want them to set what they are going to do, then LEAVE IT ALONE for a few years to let things settle in, give teams chances to buy some "used equipment" at a cheaper price, etc...

[Testure]

Careful, GP - this isn't a "why oval racing is great" thread Lots of people love oval racing, sure, but lots of people can't stand it. I'm one of them!

I think Snrub hints at a good point in that the car (setup/engine/etc) is currently the defining piece in IRL racing. It's the car that gives the "pack racing", not the drivers. Isn't that why in-race engineering is more important in oval racing than in road-racing? Or why cars qualify for Indy, not drivers? I agree with you Snrub - arranging the cars such that they run flat-out all the way around maybe isn't a recipe to allow individual drivers to shine.

I think it's going to be fascinating to see how the engine manufacturers deal with road racing. The ability to adjust the boost of a turbo engine makes them a good choice for diverse courses, so seeing how a 3 litre NA engine can be adjusted should be interesting. Then there's the whole aero package to think about. Since the races are rumoured for next year, we should start hearing some stuff during this year. I'd guess some official tests should happen soon?