How much to spend on a classic car restoration?

[dtype38]

I'm currently pondering a dilemma and would like your thoughts.

I've got a basically sound and reliable but slightly tatty Mk2 Jaguar which I tried selling recently but no one was prepared to offer reasonable money for it. By that I mean there was plenty of interest, but everyone seemed to be looking at is as a basis for restoration and therefore wanted it dirt cheap. The reasoning seemed to be that restoration work is so expensive these days, that for the finished car to actually be worth more than the cost of restoration, then it had to be dirt cheap to start with.

Well, I wasn't prepared to sell it "dirt cheap" so decided to do a bit of restoration myself with a view to either keeping it or making it saleable at a more sensible price. Having now taken some of it apart, I'm contemplating the work required, and here comes my dilemma... I'm reasonably experienced at working on cars, but also know my limitations (I'd place my restoration skills at "talented amateur"). So, to do A) what I'd call a "proper" job: its going to be extremely time consuming, I'll have to sub the difficult bits out at considerable cost and so will be very expensive too. Do I do B) a "reasonable" job: which is still going to be extremely time consuming but I can do it myself on a "materials only" basis and it'll end up looking good and very sound, but is probably not going to add to its value much more that I'd be spending on it. OR C) I could do a "cosmetic" job which would pain me deeply, but would probably do the same for its value as B) but with a lot less time and money.

What would you do?

[AussieTimmeh]

In my experience, for every dollar you spend on the car, you'll get back less than 50 cents when the time comes to sell. You can reduce this by putting time into the car yourself (as in, if you know how to re-upholster then you could save cash on this but you still need to buy materials).

The idea of restoring a car to get a better return on your dollar is not a sound one, in my experience of buying / restoring / selling classics. Maybe Jaguars and the like are different to the Escorts I'm used to, but in my opinion you'll most likely end up going backwards.

The only way I have made money on classic cars is when the car is becoming more desirable and the demand goes up, not from spending money on the car.

[MGDavid]

as you've already decided the car is not a keeper then C is the logical decision.

[andrewc]

Whilst current market value - cost of restoration = value of project has some logic to the layman, if costed properly then you would end up giving money to people to take most cars away.

The car has an inherent value, as a project or heartlessly as parts.

People have to restore cars because they love that car and want to see it back on the road. Maybe that car has particular memories which is why someone is embarking on a costly or time consuming project, or they have wanted a car like that for many years - usually cars of your early teenage years are the ones many adults end up with as a classic later in life.

If you can do much of the work yourself, you may find it easier to sell the car with an MoT, so you may need to cost out what getting an MoT will need in terms of parts.

As soon as you have to employ specialists the costs start increasing. The number of man hours required to restore a car is quite immense.

If your ultimate intention is to sell the car, I would probably suggest selling as-is or with an MoT. I've seen plenty of 'restorations' where a car has been tarted up for sale, and a fresh coat of paint over substandard work underneath has left the new owner with a sour taste in their mouth.

If you plan to keep the car, then thats a different matter. A full blown restoration will cost a lot, and it can be difficult to contain a job as once you get started with bodywork for example and start taking panels off you may uncover things that no-one knew about the car based on what they could see before the paint was removed.

Honesty is the best way all round.

If by case B you can justify the expense and know that although you won't make anything on the car, but you won't loose either, but the car will be easier to sell, then that.

[dtype38]

All good points, thanks for those. It was exactly at the point of contemplating if panels would have to be removed that I decided there was a choice to make.

I think option A is out really. Although it's great fun to own and drive, I just don't have sufficient attachment to the car, or funds, to embark on a complete restoration. As for option B, I could do most of the work myself, but it would never be to professional standards. I guess that means it wouldn't add that much to its value, so would just be for my own enjoyment and perhaps make it much more saleable. As for just tarting it up. It may be logical, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to do it.

Perhaps I'll settle on just sorting out some of the basic faults properly, getting rid of some of the dubious modifications that have been done to it over the years, then having another go selling it for sensible money.

[gt917]

I,ve always wanted a Mk 2 to race. Just how rough is it. Strip out all the good bits, sell them on and make good money for them as spares, and sell me the rolling shell cheaply. When its been modified you can come back into racing by sharing the driving!!!

Simples ............. i told you not to let the licence go.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by dtype38

everyone seemed to be looking at is as a basis for restoration and therefore wanted it dirt cheap. The reasoning seemed to be that restoration work is so expensive these days, that for the finished car to actually be worth more than the cost of restoration, then it had to be dirt cheap to start with.


What would you do?

I think you've answered your own question in a way. As I've said before you'll never get your money back if you intend selling for a profit or even to break even. If you are selling the MK2 I'd do nothing to it and let it go for whatever it fetches, I believe you had a reasonable offer or two, by that I mean you wouldn't get what the car stands you in but not a bad price.
Here's another thing to look at, as you have started to burn bridges with racing why not go the whole hog and sell the dtype and keep the Mk2, you could use the proceeds to turn it into a really nice car and apart from your time I doubt it wouldn't cost a serious amount to do. Think about it, what's going to be the better car to drive around in for fun.

Originally Posted by gt917

I,ve always wanted a Mk 2 to race. Just how rough is it. Strip out all the good bits, sell them on and make good money for them as spares, and sell me the rolling shell cheaply. When its been modified you can come back into racing by sharing the driving!!!

Simples ............. i told you not to let the licence go.

Graham no doubt after you'd finished converting it the car would be too nice to put near a race track. The licence will only ever be a form and a medical away.

[JHamilton]

What about selling it outside the UK? Would it not command a higher price where there are fewer? I honestly don't know, this is just based upon the only one I have ever seen in the flesh. It was for sale and I would call it 'driver quality', but only just. He was asking what would roughly be £15,000.

[terence]

Having restored a few Mk2 s in the past[for customers] as you say,they can be very expensive to restore properly,think I would try and sell it on as is.

[dtype38]

I tried selling it on "as is". But the price was wrong. To put some numbers on this: I bought the car for £9300 then spent several hundred sorting out a few minor issues. For the sake of argument, lets say £10,000 then. I then had it officially valued by a Jaguar Club. I suggested £12,000, but they decided £13,000 would be more accurate. Due to other circumstances I then decided to sell the car so advertised it at £12,000 with a view to being quite flexible and eventually dropping down to around £10,000. In fact, I decided I wouldn't turn my nose up at any offer over £9,000.

Quite a lot of people came to see the car, but all turned their noses up at it. On guy offered me £7,000, but I declined. Was that unreasonable?


Tim as for which car is more exciting/fun to drive.... let me see... D-type / Mk 2 ? You really have to ask?

[AussieTimmeh]

Originally Posted by dtype38

I then had it officially valued by a Jaguar Club. I suggested £12,000, but they decided £13,000 would be more accurate.

I guess the hard lesson is that the car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

You either keep it listed for as long as it takes to sell, or you consider recovering as much as you can, copping a loss, and moving on. It's always hard selling a car for what you think it is worth. To avoid disappointment, I usually take 3 grand or so off what I think it *should* sell for in order to sell it in a shorter timeframe. Hurts though, the other option is waiting for the right person.

[terence]

Originally Posted by dtype38

I tried selling it on "as is". But the price was wrong. To put some numbers on this: I bought the car for £9300 then spent several hundred sorting out a few minor issues. For the sake of argument, lets say £10,000 then. I then had it officially valued by a Jaguar Club. I suggested £12,000, but they decided £13,000 would be more accurate. Due to other circumstances I then decided to sell the car so advertised it at £12,000 with a view to being quite flexible and eventually dropping down to around £10,000. In fact, I decided I wouldn't turn my nose up at any offer over £9,000.

Quite a lot of people came to see the car, but all turned their noses up at it. On guy offered me £7,000, but I declined. Was that unreasonable?


Tim as for which car is more exciting/fun to drive.... let me see... D-type / Mk 2 ? You really have to ask?

Certainly not! I assume the car to have a current MOT?

[dtype38]

Agree that £3k below "market value" is probably what it takes to sell an old car, which is why I set it £4k below the official valuation (which is an agreed market value with my insurer). I'm not so desperate to sell it that I would go lower. I'd rather wait for the right buyer / market conditions.

Yes it has a current mot/tax etc. Like I said in the O/P it's a basically sound reliable car with some cosmetic issues and none-standard parts on it. The former is rust bubbles along the bottom edges of the doors and front wings, very tatty carpets, and that the front seats and door cards have been renewed in "simulated" leather. There's also a small dent in the roof and a rusty bottom edge on the boot lid. The latter is that someone has made an attempt to make a Coombs Racer replica out of it. It's not a bad job, but not great. In fact, most of the bits fitted for the purpose are probably worth more on ebay than on the car!

As for GT's suggestion of turning it into a racer... well there are much better places to start. Like a bare shell and chassis! Sorry, that's not a go at you Graham, just that it would be a world of pain.

[terence]

Stick with it,as you say,someone somewhere.

[Paul D]

What is the exact spec of the car, with regard to engine/transmission/wheel type/colour/year?

The thing with Mk 2 Jags is that, because they're not that uncommon, people will tend to wait for a car with the right spec combination. If you don't have that, then it can make them difficult to sell. That's not to say you won't sell it - just that they have to be priced accordingly if they're not the most desireable spec.

[JHamilton]

Speak of the devil, last night's new to me 'Wheeler Dealers' featured a Mk2.

It's a really cool car. I would do some mild restoration work on it, enjoy the car, and wait for the right buyer to come across.

[Middle_BBG]

Similar situation.

Took an 1972 MGB GT to a local specialist and together we were unable to find where the supposed 5 figure restoration from a few years ago was....the costs to bring the car back to good condition will outweigh the cost of a car in tip-top condition. BUT, and it is a big but, we were left the car by my brother following his sad demise from cancer last year, so the emotional content here is far greater than the fiscal outlay.

Had it not been my dear brother's car then I doubt I would be having the car restored, but Joe never got to enjoy his car, and my wife really enjoys driving it, so Jo-Jo will return to the road - and hang the expense.

[terence]

Unfortunately thats often the case.! The last Healey resto I did some years ago,full nut and bolt job,came out at 42k. The owner wanted the car 100% and was not disappointed. Bs are very easy to restore,but the costs are still higher than what the car will ever be worth.[Unless it happens to be a works car of course.]

[garcon]

I wonder if various tv programmes have given Joe punter a slanted view on what he can get for his money pre restoration?

I think I would bide my time. Even keep doing a few bits to the car (although I could understand you not wanting to spend a chunk more on it). Eventually the right buyer will come along with a sensible idea of its value.

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Paul D

What is the exact spec of the car, with regard to engine/transmission/wheel type/colour/year?

The thing with Mk 2 Jags is that, because they're not that uncommon, people will tend to wait for a car with the right spec combination. If you don't have that, then it can make them difficult to sell. That's not to say you won't sell it - just that they have to be priced accordingly if they're not the most desireable spec.

Sorry Paul, wasn't ignoring you, just been away on holiday for a few days. Anyway, to answer your question, its a 1961 3.8 in gunmetal grey with red interior. Has wire wheels in body colour. Gearbox is a later 4synchro with electric overdrive. So, as far as I can tell it's pretty much the "one to have". Chrome wires would probably be better, although the later gearbox is usually considered a desirable upgrade from the none-synchro Moss box. Oh and it's got a motolita wood rim Mk2 wheel instead of the original bakelite thing but it's a matter of taste which is better on that one.

Ok, decision made. I'm going to take off all the non-standard things that have been added over the years and replace with period standard parts. I'll sell what comes off and hopefully that will be fairly neutral financially. I'm then going to give it a good mechanical going over to replace worn bushes, get rid of oil leaks, check bearings, set up suspension, tune nicely etc. etc. Then I'm going to deal with the main elements of body corrosion and the roof dent, but without a full bare metal jobbie, then give it a basic spray job.

With all that done and back on the road again, I'll put it up for sale again, but drive it round and enjoy it until the right buyer comes along at the right price.

[JHamilton]

Cool! Try to post some pics of your progress.

[dtype38]

Ok, no probs.... here we go for starters:

Pic 1 : The car as I bought it.
Pic 2 : As the engine bay was. Note: triple 2" SU carbs and Mk 10 manifold fitted, requiring the battery to be moved to the boot and lots of re-arrangement in the engine bay. Also many minor parts are not from a Mk2.
Pic 3 : The engine bay with most of the non standard parts removed.
Pic 4 : The "Coombs" racing style bonnet and rear wheel spats which will be sold. Replacement standard bonnet and "deep" wheel spats have already been bought. Notice in the background the spare wheel (left) with correct tyre size fitted next to the road wheel with wider lower profile tyre fitted. (Would have been interesting if I'd got a puncture!). The low profile tyres will be sold and correct new tyres bought for all round.
Pic 5 : Front end with brightwork removed. Only issue found here was a badly corroded near-side end of the front cross rail where the bumper mounts. This will be replaced. The fan shaped shadow on the radiator core is where a Kenlow was fitted. I've taken that off because it was completely superfluous. It never ran even sitting in traffic on a hot day. Probably because the rad is a recent replacement and the engine has been cleaned inside (I can tell because the antifreeze came out crystal clear!)
Pic 6 : The triple 2" SU set above (which will be sold), with the correct twin 1 3/4" SU and manifold set below awaiting restoration.

[JHamilton]

Hell, no wonder you aren't going to give it away... that's a beautiful car! Also, if there is a better looking engine than a Jag strait six, I don't know what it is.

Couple of questions:
- Is there a good resource to read up on these Coombs cars? I don't know anything about them.
- I may be a 'chav' but I really like the louvered hood. However, what I like more is the ones I have seen with the leather hood straps. What are those from and could you add them?
- Do you think the 2" carbs reduce the value among collectors? Is there not a significant performance gain?... In other words, why?

I wish I was close enough to help work on it. I really wish i had the means to buy it. Man, that sure would attract some attention riding through Atlanta.

[275 GTB-4]

Lovely Jag above....

To anyone who has paid a resto shop to tiddle up a vehicle...

Did you ask for and receive regular itemised accounts and detailed descriptions of what work was carried out?? (including cost of components, materials etc purchased) and is it considered reasonable to ask for and expect same???

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Couple of questions:
- Is there a good resource to read up on these Coombs cars? I don't know anything about them.

Coombs were a Jaguar dealer who were into motorsport so offered a number of upgrades for customers looking to compete their car. Here's a link to the basic info. There is more about them in the rest of the site if you hunt about : http://www.jaguarmk2.info/what_is_a_coombs_.html

Originally Posted by JHamilton

- I may be a 'chav' but I really like the louvered hood. However, what I like more is the ones I have seen with the leather hood straps. What are those from and could you add them?

You may be thinking of the earlier Jaguar XK sports cars which usually sported bonnet straps when racing. Like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:19...r_XK120_34.jpg

Originally Posted by JHamilton

- Do you think the 2" carbs reduce the value among collectors? Is there not a significant performance gain?... In other words, why?

The "triple" carb set were only used on the E-type or the later Mk 10 saloon (usually written Mk X) so anyone who knew what they were looking at would instantly know it was non-standard. Beauty is obviously in the eye of the beholder, so an "enhancement" for some is "buggered about with" to others. Generally though, originality will get the better price amongst collectors. Hence my comment about the gear box. Similarly with the size of the carbs, the smaller ones are correct for the car, and the correct air inlet duct and manifold will only fit the smaller carbs. Again, originality is usually the most desirable. As for performance, well.... all I can say is : Live axle + leaf springs + 2 tons means you really, really wouldn't want to try driving one of these quickly unless you were a very experienced, skilled and confident driver... and even then it's quite an "experience". So unless you're going to put it on a race track, then the twin smaller carbs is quite sufficient!