IMSA The pro-speech dedicated IMSA BoP to let the other threads be free!

[JT240Z]

This whole BoP thing just drives me crazy. Takes all of the power and skills of the teams out of the picture. The better they make their product perform the more they bet BoPed for it.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by JT240Z

This whole BoP thing just drives me crazy. Takes all of the power and skills of the teams out of the picture. The better they make their product perform the more they bet BoPed for it.

You know it is a homologated product right? The team isn't doing much to "make it better" as much as learn how to drive and manage the car. They aren't getting BoP based on finishing order

[JT240Z]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

You know it is a homologated product right? The team isn't doing much to "make it better" as much as learn how to drive and manage the car. They aren't getting BoP based on finishing order

Homologated is another word for performance limited. Based on ???????????? Too much of that in my opinion. If a car is slow then it's slow. Leave it up to the teams to find where their hidden performance increases are. They spec out the cars to begin with and then every car goes through the initial homologation process for approval. That should have taken care of "making it fair". Too much of a possibility of favoritism in the new BoP rules. BMW gets an edge based on crappy performance on the track. I loved the days where performance was engineered by the teams.

[broadrun96]

Yeah, and that era went where exactly?? Oh yeah, blew up in its face and ended each and every time it has been tried. Thanks, I'd prefer 20 years of racing over 4 years of the same team and costs rising and rising until everyone leaves

[JT240Z]

I still prefer a time where sports car racing was an example of engineering prowess. Races like Sebring and Le Mans were perfect examples of engineering successes and failures. Le Mans lasted more than your stated 4-year period long before BoP existed. The American Le Mans series lasted years as well without the race-to-race changes of BoP. As a race car fan I can have my opinion. Do we have to live with BoP? Yes, but it doesn't mean that we can't have our opinions on how it's being implemented.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by JT240Z

Yes, but it doesn't mean that we can't have our opinions on how it's being implemented.

And this is the thread for it!

[JT240Z]

OK, so what is the purpose of such minor BoP changes and what determines when changes are needed?

[Adam43]

Have a think. What are they trying to do? And what does it mean if the changes are small?

These are tweaks. They are trying to manage something that they are pretty happy with, but want to be more happy with! IMSA will have seen something that justifies this. It will be based on data they have, probably more than lap times.

I guess that the stint energy is the easiest to assess, followed by power, then the weight (which is combined with the others to produce performance). In ACO hypercar they also throw more of the aero into the original understanding, but don’t adjust.

The time to worry is when it is a big adjustment!

I must admit, I prefer the longer periods of no adjustment we see in WEC. However, IMSA have been doing similar for some time with similar cars and it is just their style of approach to this. Hypercar is a little newer in concept, so understand that data more before going mad. Although I like their bigger gaps.

[JT240Z]

The problem I see is that IMSA is not being very transparent on the criteria for BoP changes. If the changes are being implemented based on empirical data, then it should be pretty easy to allow others to see what the data is indicating and what the goal is. All of these "minor" changes do add up.

EDIT: I know it's apples and oranges, but it reminds me of the NASCAR CoT cars where safety, reduced cost and equal competition were the primary goals. Didn't fair well for them. The cars became too generic and lacked the fan loyalty to the brand.

[Adam43]

I’d love them to show us the detail of the why. That would be great.

But it wouldn’t be “pretty easy”. Who’s actually ready to be reasonable when digesting it? To make the effort to understand the methodology? Let alone be equipped to understand it all?

Do all of these little changes “add up”? They go up and down and it is honed. (See the last five attached). No, they are tweaked, but aren’t additive.

Also, and I am guessing here, IMSA would like to make lots of small changes to stop wild swings. Which is what many don’t want.

The whole point of what IMSA and ACO is doing it’s to avoid the NASCAR example of making all the cars the same. This allows the variety and the engineering to still play a part while also keeping the field super close.

That’s their aim and, while it will never be absolutely perfect, it is delivering on that. They will continue to chase the perfection and the way you do that is by continually making minor changes and tweaking. As any good engineer will tell you.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Have a think. What are they trying to do? And what does it mean if the changes are small?

These are tweaks. They are trying to manage something that they are pretty happy with, but want to be more happy with! IMSA will have seen something that justifies this. It will be based on data they have, probably more than lap times.

You're right, I think it is a formula based thing, so IMSA officials aren't deciding to make changes, but instead they decided to use this mathematics approach that is fed by data loggers in the car. The math told them to make small changes.

It is fine, as long as they don't mess with the fake fuel fill thing I think the fans will be happy!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by joeb

… I think the fans will be happy!

There is nothing that IMSA can do to make the fans happy! There is nothing anyone can do

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by joeb

You're right, I think it is a formula based thing, so IMSA officials aren't deciding to make changes, but instead they decided to use this mathematics approach that is fed by data loggers in the car. The math told them to make small changes.



It is fine, as long as they don't mess with the fake fuel fill thing I think the fans will be happy!

I think it's fighting the different track makeup too. I'm not a fan of that part though, just let some cars do better at "flowing" tracks and others can do better at point and squirt running.

But I'm also guessing those with the knowledge depth know why the changes are made and what the result will be there. IMSA isn't really interested in the fan knows why the change and explanations probably would not come easily.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Adam43

There is nothing that IMSA can do to make the fans happy! There is nothing anyone can do

I think they've taken the they're angry anyway so why waste more time, this is what we're doing and the teams know why approach

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by JT240Z

EDIT: I know it's apples and oranges, but it reminds me of the NASCAR CoT cars where safety, reduced cost and equal competition were the primary goals. Didn't fair well for them. The cars became too generic and lacked the fan loyalty to the brand.

I think that's kind of picking on a car that's literally not much different than the preceding car in terms of distance from the street version. It was just the easy thing to pick on, same as stages now. Neither went well but they're the easiest things to pick out

[seanyb505]

The sooner you can accept this motor racing thing has devolved to marketing and being able to market your product, the better. The point isn't to let the engineering brains go crazy. It's to give a platform that you can sell to a board.

Should we go racing here? Are we going to have a decent (not fair) chance at seeing success? Yes? Ok let's go here's your budget, it's small. No? Ok don't do it.

The series realizes what conversations the factory teams are facing, and has amended the ruleset to make it an easier sell in the board room. More board rooms on track means more 3rd party board rooms want to dump money into advertising. See fox factory, sargento cheese, etc.

We as the fans are in an oxy moronic place. We think a faster car equals a better show. Better show equals more fans and therefore more advertising roi. Psyche! Participants (which we are not. Repeat. Buying a ticket or tuning in is not participating) prefer an equal opportunity to feature in the motorsport event. If they're guaranteed an off podium, thanks for running type consolation prize, they're not going to show up next year. Now imagine that's bmw.

[broadrun96]

Well it's not even just that it's marketing, it's that marketing has changed because we as consumers have. Hell Enzo said he only would cars cause rich people would buy his cars and fund more racing. And he didn't really have polite things to say about those buyers it seems.

And sorry but the minority "anorak" racing fans who want the "purity of the sport" aren't the majority or even a measurable minority. I can see MB racing posters from the street in Buckhead Atlanta with the AMG GT3, the actual on track success isn't as important as advertising they race that car you can buy.

I chose to enjoy the cars on track and just love the smell of being burning dead dinosaurs and hanging out with others who enjoy it, and leave the politics of it to the side. They're bringing me a fun product to watch and making cars that then appear in Historics and I get to enjoy them 3 times a year at my local. Ok my local track is Road Atlanta so I'm spoiled there.


Watch Group 2 or 3 of HSR, they're about 1:45 plus around Road Atlanta for the best of them. But I watched them every time around the track last weekend, and likely will again in the fall. Group 2 is 914s, 911 early model base motor, Austin Healy and MGs and other cars with engines anyone can carry under their arm. Still watch, ok some of that is interesting cars but LMP3 does the same. Interesting cars and different look between Ligier and Norma (or whatever, Duqueine I think) but they make a good noise.

But I'm a simple man, cars, smell of burning fuel and trackside I'm happy. No rain and it's a good day

[JT240Z]

I have to admit that this has been a very depressing topic. To think that fans aren't even considered in the scheme of things saddens me.

[Adam43]

I don’t understand what you mean by this.

They’re trying to make a successful race series. For that they need a good attractive rule set. Then the fans can watch and enjoy.

And I’ve quite enjoyed the topic. Helped me think about it more and why it came to be.

[veeten]

It's more so that he is in that place that many of us were long ago. Enthusiastic, but still motivated by what they see on the TV, and not understand as to why things are.

What is the difference? We chose to do just what our teachers told us long ago.... "Do your homework...." Research and investigation. Getting all the information that you can, so as you can come to an informed opinion, not just an opinion. It is the difference in the answers given in this thread. The reason, as I see it, is that he's depressed is that there's a lot more to the sport than just watching and cheering for a specific team or car.

Give him time, he'll figure it out...

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by veeten

It's more so that he is in that place that many of us were long ago. Enthusiastic, but still motivated by what they see on the TV, and not understand as to why things are.

What is the difference? We chose to do just what our teachers told us long ago.... "Do your homework...." Research and investigation. Getting all the information that you can, so as you can come to an informed opinion, not just an opinion. It is the difference in the answers given in this thread. The reason, as I see it, is that he's depressed is that there's a lot more to the sport than just watching and cheering for a specific team or car.

Give him time, he'll figure it out...

Naw, I never enjoyed sportscar racing more than back in 2005/06 when - having only followed F1 and touring cars so far - I knew nothing about the politics and everything was new and wonderful.

"Doing my homework" and learning more has only sucked the fun out of it.

[Adam43]

I see that! The trick then is to just enjoy the racing and not bother with the rest. In which case this approach is designed for you!

[JT240Z]

It does seem that the politics behind the scenes has made the appreciation of the product on the track just a tad diminished. I use to love the idea of the cars and teams developing their products and fine tuning their systems to achieve maximum performance. Never really thought too much about how the specs changed daily to limit/enhance the products they were developing.

[Adam43]

IMSA came into being because of politics behind the scene!

Not sure how this rule set demonstrates this particularly!? Have we got to the bottom why the fans aren’t even considered?

[JT240Z]

It's all about the money and not about the entertainment value. Got it.;