Should Reverse Grids Be Scrapped?

barney551 · 16 May 2005, 01:21 (Ref:1301857)

Congratulations to Adam Macrow.... I have always known of his talents and was pleased tpo see him get a drive this year.

But......

Facts are facts.

Its easy to win when the fastest and most consistent driver is eliminated from the competition due to the most idiotic situation in motor racing.

Fact..... there there was over 4 seconds difference in qualifying between canto and the slowest qualifier.... and this was on a track where lap times were in the 1:01's on average

Fact ... you win race 1 by in excess of 3 secs .... create a new lap record and are then given the privledge of starting from the back of the field for race 2 knowing that everyone in front of you is slower.(stating the obvious)

Fact ... the fastest time in R2 was was almost a second slower than Canto's fast lap in R1 ... the winners fastest lap was almost 3 secs slower

Fact .... The fastest lap in race 3 was still around .3 slower than that record lap time as well.

Fact ... In the main game there is generally less than 1 sec difference in the top 20 and they dont have reverse grids

Till the end of race 1 the only stat that Canto wasnt at the top was P1 at wakefield. He is clearly the dominant force within the series , at this point in time, and it would appear now that with no points out of races 2 and 3 has little chance of winning the championship, given the points structure.

So once again due to some moronic decision to introduce reverse grids the most dominant driver is highly likely to win the majority of the remaining rounds and not win the series.

This makes a lot of sence ....NOT

Come on Guys lets see the best racers out there racing in the front ... not battling with guys who are trying their hardest but not in their class ... at this point in time .

LETS once and for all GET RID OF THESE RIDICULOUS REVERSE GRIDS.!!!!!!!

Henry · 16 May 2005, 01:43 (Ref:1301860)

Reverse Grids ... What are they good for?

Panel Beaters

Average Punter · 16 May 2005, 07:23 (Ref:1301926)

Judging by the number of times they flogged the reverse grid concept in the TV ads for Wakefield, it's apparent the orgy-nisers think it's good for the fans.

I'm with you Barney. Maybe it's OK for go-karts but this time we're playing for sheep stations...

peckstar · 16 May 2005, 07:37 (Ref:1301934)

sheep station. damn cheap sheep station maybe for a quarter acre block

pete55 · 16 May 2005, 09:03 (Ref:1301986)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry

Reverse Grids ... What are they good for?

Panel Beaters

chavez · 16 May 2005, 09:42 (Ref:1302019)

If having the fast guys start at the back of the grid is good enough for Steve Kinser, Brooke Tatnell or Max Dumsney it is good enough for the guys in the development V8 Supercar series. The odd reverse grid wouldn't hurt in the main game either.

Placebo · 16 May 2005, 10:38 (Ref:1302053)

First and foremost - thank goodness neither driver was seriously hurt - no thanks to AVESCO.
Secondly, congratulations to Adam Macrow and the Howard Team.

Thanks Barney for saving me typing all those very valid points. When mentioning Dean's lap record in race 1 (which wasn't threatened by anyone else later in the day) - you forgot to mention he'd never raced there before.

Footage (including in-car) was on 10 news tonight and will no doubt be on Sports Tonight. Dean got a good start and was right on tony D'Alberto's tail when he suddenly went right to avoid Jay Verdnik who had stalled. Because the in-car camera is on the left - you see it coming a bit sooner than poor Deano did. That was a hard shunt. When Dean caught up with Jay he offered him back the piece of anti-sway bar that was found under the bonnet in the Gatorz car.

Unfortunately, getting AVESCO to pay for the damage won't restore Dean's championship aspirations. Macrow is now more than 100 points ahead of Dean. Given that reverse grids will no doubt continue - it's impossible to win all 3 races in a round. Because of the stupid point system that doesn't reward drivers who WIN, even if Dean wins all 5 remaining rounds, the only way he can win the championship is if a similar fate befalls Macrow (and probably others). And this all because of a reverse grid. So it's possible we could see someone win 7/7 pole positions and 6/7 rounds and not win the championship.
It's a bloody joke - but who's laughing.

If they're going to continue with reverse grids - maybe they should bring in "drop your worst round".

Interestingly, I heard at the track that Barry Tanton lined up on pole for race 2 but started in pit lane after the warm-up because he was not comfortable about starting with the field behind him. If this is correct - full credit to him - it's a shame AVESCO's not as sensible. It's also a shame that Deano didn't think of doing the same until afterwards.

mixxer · 16 May 2005, 11:46 (Ref:1302108)

Quote:

Reverse Grids ... What are they good for?

Some say they are good for sponsors
but IMO
Nothing, absolutely nothing

ndp286 · 16 May 2005, 12:17 (Ref:1302140)

If they want excitement, have only 2 cars on the track at once. Each must do 3 laps in a timed shootout. The only catch is that the cars must be going in opposite directions.

This method would excite the fans and fine tune the drivers reflexes.

**GTRMagic** · 16 May 2005, 12:44 (Ref:1302169)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Average Punter

Judging by the number of times they flogged the reverse grid concept in the TV ads for Wakefield, it's apparent the orgy-nisers think it's good for the fans.

If only they could spell the location correctly in those ads... Goulbourn indeed!!

I have a question...

What is the difference between a car starting rear of grid because of a mechanical or other ailment from a previous race, and being placed behind slower cars.... and a reverse grid race?

Arguably the end result is the same... a quick car at the back, slower cars to fight thru to get to the front.... the risk of similar damage the same as was caused yesterday.

Mr Verdnik is still a young driver, not as experienced as some others out there.. but there are a number of current main series guys who have stalled at the lights at some point in their careers.... stuff happens...

Regrettable... of course
Costly.. undoubtedly
Life threatening... probably not in this case but that doesnt mean it cant be..
Easily replicable in a non-reverse grid race... yep...

Rombles1 · 16 May 2005, 13:23 (Ref:1302187)

What is the rationale behind having reverse grid races in the HPDC's but not in the main series? Who decides these things - AVESCO or the promoters?

Average Punter · 16 May 2005, 13:41 (Ref:1302204)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

What is the difference between a car starting rear of grid because of a mechanical or other ailment from a previous race, and being placed behind slower cars.... and a reverse grid race?

A logical call GTR (as usual) but in one case you're at the back of the pack because your car shot itself and in the other you're there as a "reward" for winning.

BIG difference.

Same applies if a fast car qualifies poorly eg Skaife at Bathurst last year. Some fast guys will always start near the back but it just doesn't seem fair to throw a race winnner into that risky situation for no other reason than "entertainment"... So what if Canto streets everyone 3 races in a row??????

BTW can anyone remember if the Morris/Larkham prang at Oran Park a few years back was because they were starting towards the back of the grid???

mixxer · 16 May 2005, 13:53 (Ref:1302211)

Quote:

Average Punter
A logical call GTR (as usual) but in one case you're at the back of the pack because your car shot itself and in the other you're there as a "reward" for winning.

BIG difference.

Exactly

**GTRMagic** · 16 May 2005, 14:12 (Ref:1302222)

I will answer my own question to tickle the debate a little further...

A DNF or DNS car starting at the back starts immediately behind slower cars. In a reverse grid race the SLOW cars are all at the front of the pack and usually get swamped at the first two corners....

I know the reverse grid thing is artificial... but why is it such a problem in circuit racing, when it isnt in Speedway?

And I suppose why are the bottom end of the HPDC grid so different in skills and experience from the front of that grid? Is there an overriding licencing issue here that we may be ignoring??

Having just seen the Canto/Verdnik crash on Sports Tonight... Mr Canto must have been looking at something other than the road in front... he didnt seem to deviate his line at all...

Rombles1 · 16 May 2005, 14:29 (Ref:1302245)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Having just seen the Canto/Verdnik crash on Sports Tonight... Mr Canto must have been looking at something other than the road in front... he didnt seem to deviate his line at all...

He was probably wondering where D'Alberto was going....

**GTRMagic** · 16 May 2005, 14:32 (Ref:1302249)

Quite possibly although Mr D'Alberto's site isnt updated yet with the race results, and reason for the pit lane adventure....

Spunky · 16 May 2005, 22:29 (Ref:1302628)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rombles1

What is the rationale behind having reverse grid races in the HPDC's but not in the main series? Who decides these things - AVESCO or the promoters?

The main series did not want it for the simple reason, it is too expensive in damage and ruins championships, the DS also argued the case last year, even offering to reverse just the top ten, but it fell on deaf ears. Avesco want it for entertainment value. They just keep making the DS more expensive every year, and wonder why the numbers are dropping.

barney551 · 17 May 2005, 03:17 (Ref:1302699)

GTR ... I agree with all of what you are saying ... these type of incidents can happen in any race reverse grid or not.... however the sitution of putting the fast guys behind the slow ones only increases the probability of it happening as the fast guys are still racing each other and not wanting to lose touch.

Rombles1 ... it may have not looked like it from the footage ... but what you have to do is realise that these guys were already doing around 140kph of the line Canto was pretty close to D'Alberto and really at that pace he didnt have time to change course .... after all D'Alberto left it pretty late and he had clear vision of Verdnik .... Dean couldnt have seen him till D'Alberto was way right.

Placebo · 17 May 2005, 05:01 (Ref:1302723)

And don't forget, the in-car camera is on the left side of the car. Driver on the right - D'Alberto went right - so the camera got a view before Dean did.

There is another difference between a fast car starting at the back of the grid and a full reverse grid. At the start in a normal grid, the cars immediately start to spread a bit due to difference in speed, and the backmarkers know there is a fast car behind them and let them through. Besides - a single car making it's way through the pack which is becoming drawn out is less of a problem than the other scenario.
In a full reverse grid, there is an immediate concertina effect increasing the chance of contact with all the cars at the back trying to overtake but keep the others behind them.
It's a recipe for disaster even without someone stalling on the grid.

Placebo · 17 May 2005, 05:25 (Ref:1302732)

I thought I'd get an idea of whether the general consensus (irrespective of reasons) was whether they should be scrapped or not, so:

Should they be scrapped?

marcus · 17 May 2005, 08:36 (Ref:1302827)

I voted No

Marcos Skaife · 17 May 2005, 10:03 (Ref:1302867)

Here in NZ our V8 series runs a reverse grid for the top ten in the third race. Our guys hate this too but that has to be better than being at the back of thirty cars. Having said that I really like them and would love to see them in the main game. Marcos and Mark showed how good they both were at Barbagello,get the rest of the good ones back there................................................entertainment plus!!

Falcadore · 17 May 2005, 12:09 (Ref:1302919)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixxer

Exactly

Your kidding right?

In the case of mechanical failures your own your own as a quick car at the back.

In Reverse grid, you have company. With lots of quick cars at the back, the danger doesn't add, it multiplies.

But as far as AVESCO is concerned - it doesn't matter if the Development series cars bingle up. Its not like they have a voice to protest about the unprofessionalism of reverse grid racing.

The big teams in the main game, can apply political pressure to change rules like reverse grid, that Development teams can not. And reverse grid gets punters through the gates as we all want to see a bingle...

racer69 · 17 May 2005, 12:57 (Ref:1302954)

If you win a race you shouldn't be penalised by starting the next from the back of the grid.

If you have a poor race you should not be rewarded by pole position for the next race.

Good starting spots must be earned! But it seems the rule makers want you to earn a poor grid position.

mixxer · 17 May 2005, 16:10 (Ref:1303053)

Quote:

Average Punter
A logical call GTR (as usual) but in one case you're at the back of the pack because your car shot itself and in the other you're there as a "reward" for winning.
BIG difference.

Quote:

Mixxer
Exactly

Quote:

Falcadore
Your kidding right?
In the case of mechanical failures your own your own as a quick car at the back.
In Reverse grid, you have company. With lots of quick cars at the back, the danger doesn't add, it multiplies.

and your point is different to mine how ?

View Poll Results: Should Reverse Grids Be Scrapped?
Yes	22	52.38%
No	20	47.62%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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