the great silverstone loop photo gap and no spectating debate

[Tim the Grey]

I've shot both sides. I tried NOT to block said holes, but sometimes, it's THE angle. So I'd shoot what I wanted, and move on.
Spectator side, I too HATE folks that monopolise a decent position. Spa 24 Hours, I'd snagged a hole at teh top of Raidillon, for THE Spa start shot. A Franch guy appeared, and clocked the shot too. He asked if he could take grid shots? I explained that I had NO problem at all, so long I had it for the first 2 laps. He agreed, andwe BOTH got what we wanted.
While on this subjecy? Can somebody PLEASE get a consistent policy from the marshals at Silverstone in the narrow bit around the Loop/Becketts? Some will be happy with you shooting just about anywhere, so long as you act sensibly. Once or twice, I get asked to move on after a few seconds. Then I had a right Mini-Dictator who frantically pointed out it was a "No Spectating Area" and I couldn't stop. Not for a second? He is one of very few marshals that I've wanted to argue with...

[Sodemo]

I was at Silverstone this year for the WEC and quite a number of the marshalls were asking people to stop taking photos from the photo holes, despite not actually being in front of any barriers. So you can stand there or walk past there, but stopping there and pointing a camera there isn't allowed, I'm sorry, but that's idiotic. I'm sure they are just carrying out whatever orders they have been given, so it's not me actually criticising marshalls for doing their job, more the regime that has handed down these instructions.

It wasn't only marshalls though, but the G4S security staff that were doing it. There were about 4-5 amateur photographers on one such hole on the "loop" section and a G4S bloke came over and told them all to get down and they couldn't be up on this gantry. The gantry itself was only about 2 feet high and there was no notices there stating that it was media only, or that you couldn't go and stand on it. I came back about 10 minutes later and the G4S chap had gone and there were another 5 guys shooting out of the hole. Again, I will repeat, none of these guys were in front of the railing or the debris fence.

Silverstone isn't the greatest of tracks to photograph, with or without media accreditation, but then you have people who seem to be deliberately making it harder by enforcing pathetic "rules" to stop you from using whatever access there is.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I was at Silverstone this year for the WEC and quite a number of the marshalls were asking people to stop taking photos from the photo holes, despite not actually being in front of any barriers. So you can stand there or walk past there, but stopping there and pointing a camera there isn't allowed, I'm sorry, but that's idiotic. I'm sure they are just carrying out whatever orders they have been given, so it's not me actually criticising marshalls for doing their job, more the regime that has handed down these instructions.

it's not idiotic (this is quite off-topic).

the loop is designed and set up primarily for the f1 and moto grands prix, when it's out of bounds to general spectators. in theory, the gaps in the fences there that are set up for trackside photographers should be closed at all other times because they're not meant to be used by people who have not signed their lives away.

i do agree that it is silverstone's fault for not either providing adequate fencing to keep people away from that part of the catch fencing, or not closing the gaps during non-restricted events. if it's a hole in the catch fencing directly behind the armco then you absolutely need to avoid being in contact with that fencing in the first place, and especially pointing your lens through it. if you sign on at places like ricard and anywhere with a mandatory photographers briefing, you'll learn why that is. the marshals are acting on that kind of knowledge, and the security guys are just doing what they were told.

they need to close the gaps. it's unfair to expect marshals and security to police it. they have more important things to worry about.

[Miguel]

Interesting stories!

At the Ring, the marshals often leave the gates to their posts open. No one told me (yet?) to get back behind the fence when I went to the other side of it to have a clear view of the track ahead. Perhaps a polite 'hi' is the magic word here?

[bauble]

Sadly it is down to the notorious 'ealth 'n saftee' regs. Should a spectator watching or photographing through one of the 'holes' be hit by a stray wheel (for instance) causing injury/damage there would be a cohort of 'injury lawyers' queuing up to sue on their behalf. When you sign on as Media you are there at your own risk, and have accepted that risk.
The difficulties of finding a suitable spot to take pictures is also down to the same reason, the very high safety fences designed to stop the public being put in harms way.
It is the way of the modern World, when I first started attending races in the fifties, I had several 'brushes with death' from cars leaving the black bits, flying wheels, and drivers losing control, it was all part of the fun back then, and it said on the back of the ticket that 'Motor Racing is Dangerous ...'

But of course if you got hurt while taking pictures via the gaps ... you would say it served you right. RIGHT?

Cheers,

Bob.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by bella

it's not idiotic (this is quite off-topic).

the loop is designed and set up primarily for the f1 and moto grands prix, when it's out of bounds to general spectators. in theory, the gaps in the fences there that are set up for trackside photographers should be closed at all other times because they're not meant to be used by people who have not signed their lives away.

i do agree that it is silverstone's fault for not either providing adequate fencing to keep people away from that part of the catch fencing, or not closing the gaps during non-restricted events. if it's a hole in the catch fencing directly behind the armco then you absolutely need to avoid being in contact with that fencing in the first place, and especially pointing your lens through it. if you sign on at places like ricard and anywhere with a mandatory photographers briefing, you'll learn why that is. the marshals are acting on that kind of knowledge, and the security guys are just doing what they were told.

they need to close the gaps. it's unfair to expect marshals and security to police it. they have more important things to worry about.

I do agree, if that area isn't supposed to be open, then fair enough, I wasn't aware of that. Its just strange as to how are you allowed to walk by these areas, yet you aren't allowed to stop and take pictures? A chap told us that we couldn't stop when walking by these zones. Walking by and standing still next to a fence which is unrestricted, without any barriers in front of. What if I walked by whilst taking a photo, would that be allowed? Its one rule for Silverstone and another rule for other circuits. Is it any less safe to stand at Deers Leap on the exit of Lodge (Oulton Park) where the cars almost scrape the Armco? There is no barrier there at all, just a wire fence, yet I can stand there and take photos of cars which come probably within about 6 feet of me. Where are the security staff there telling me to stop taking pictures? I do agree with your statement also, it shouldn't be marshalls telling people off.

Originally Posted by bauble

Sadly it is down to the notorious 'ealth 'n saftee' regs. Should a spectator watching or photographing through one of the 'holes' be hit by a stray wheel (for instance) causing injury/damage there would be a cohort of 'injury lawyers' queuing up to sue on their behalf. When you sign on as Media you are there at your own risk, and have accepted that risk.
The difficulties of finding a suitable spot to take pictures is also down to the same reason, the very high safety fences designed to stop the public being put in harms way.
It is the way of the modern World, when I first started attending races in the fifties, I had several 'brushes with death' from cars leaving the black bits, flying wheels, and drivers losing control, it was all part of the fun back then, and it said on the back of the ticket that 'Motor Racing is Dangerous ...'

But of course if you got hurt while taking pictures via the gaps ... you would say it served you right. RIGHT?

Cheers,

Bob.

Well exactly. I acknowledge the risks when I attend these events, I am perfectly aware of the dangers involved even with spectating. On the back of the ticket it does indeed say "motor racing is dangerous", I think it also says that any injury you sustain through attending would not be covered under any liability for the circuit or the organisers either, so I doubt you would get the ambulance chasers giving the circuit a hard time over any such incident. I too have had wheels and suspension parts flung in my direction, I have spectated and photographed rally stages, its all about putting yourself in acceptable risk.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I do agree, if that area isn't supposed to be open, then fair enough, I wasn't aware of that. Its just strange as to how are you allowed to walk by these areas, yet you aren't allowed to stop and take pictures? A chap told us that we couldn't stop when walking by these zones. Walking by and standing still next to a fence which is unrestricted, without any barriers in front of. What if I walked by whilst taking a photo, would that be allowed? Its one rule for Silverstone and another rule for other circuits. Is it any less safe to stand at Deers Leap on the exit of Lodge (Oulton Park) where the cars almost scrape the Armco? There is no barrier there at all, just a wire fence, yet I can stand there and take photos of cars which come probably within about 6 feet of me. Where are the security staff there telling me to stop taking pictures? I do agree with your statement also, it shouldn't be marshalls telling people off.

i think it's perfectly sensible to have no spectating areas. if they consider it risky for general spectating, but for access reasons people need to pass through it then it's pretty logical to let them do so, but not allow them to congregate and linger to minimise potential casualties if something does happen. the bit i'm thinking of is next to an access road to the wing - they obviously need to keep that bit clear anyway, so in the scheme of things it's sensible. i agree that it's confusing for everyone that different circuits have different levels of risk and precaution, especially if you're used to places where your self preservation kicks in before you meet the wire fences

i think they're being tight and leaving themselves open to problems by not installing something like they have at brands and oulton - a simple wire fence restricting spectators from standing too close to the catch fencing in case it has to do its job and stop something from hitting the crowds.

it's symptomatic of the whole issue with silverstone in the first place now - unlike other european venues, the entire experience has been compromised for the sake of improving the facilities for a select few. who generally don't care anyway as long as the bogs are decent and their glass of bubbly doesn't get cold.

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I too have had wheels and suspension parts flung in my direction, I have spectated and photographed rally stages, its all about putting yourself in acceptable risk.

i'm not entirely sure of the legalities and licences but i'm guessing that sadly, a rally stage is a different scenario to a circuit. i *think* permanent venues have a lot more safety requirements and obligations, plus conditions of insurance. on an individual basis it's the same risk assessment process, i totally accept that, but people are sheep and if one person sees you there they'll join you, regardless of whether they perceive it to be a safe place to stand or not. in that respect, big venues do have to legislate for the masses, who will only react when they're told *not* to do something in big letters.

it might be a sad reflection on elf 'n' safety, but it's an even sadder reflection on society!

[Sodemo]

Another thing that wound me up at Silverstone; since when did it become necessary to employ security staff at a motor racing venue? Now i'm not the most frequent of visitor to Silverstone, (mainly because I don't really like the track all that much), however when I went to the WEC last year (2012) I saw there were G4S staff everywhere. I mean, no wonder the ticket prices have gone up £5-10?! Why is it that they need this? They don't have security staff at the BTCC events...

[bella]

god, i know what you mean, i was at that wec meeting last year and must have had at least 10 different people point me in the direction of a car park. that i could have found on my own. ffs.

makes you wonder exactly where the money changes hands, whose hands it leaves, and what silverstone have to provide as a result of that money changing hands that really has no bearing on the actual event itself....

[Tim the Grey]

The G4S brigade are mainly for Grandstand security. I think, anyway...
See my many posts on the Loop, and photography?
Sometimes, you walk in, and the guys are INTENSELY relaxed about spectators. Other times, without anything changing, they won't even let you stand still? Britcar was fun. Saturday up to midnight, no problem. Sunday, no access???
I don't argue, I just look puzzled, point out I often shoot here, and walk on. They shouldn't be hassling me, but looking out for what's on track, after all.

[Robin_D]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

They shouldn't be hassling me, but looking out for what's on track, after all.

Tim, I don't beleive that this is exactly the right attitude. When on post I will always try to consider the welfare of spectators. Marshals do provide (or at least should provide) customer service to spectators and photographers.

I will always treat what is happening on the track as a priority, but spectator safety is on the agenda. I really don't want people getting hurt and as such, spectators may be asked (politely) to move on from a prohibited area for their own safety.

Please don't see it as hassling you. We're not all jobsworths.

Robin - Marshal

[bella]

i think tim meant it in a similar way to how i expressed it further up the thread - you guys shouldn't need to look out for spectators, you've got pressing things happening on the track to focus on and spectator safety is really only something you guys should be distracted with when it becomes a danger to competitors too.

if he didn't... tim, sir, you're on your own

[pauln]

I completely agree that it's something we shouldn't need to be doing. That's what security (or at the really big events spectator marshals) are there for. However, when you have people not just standing right up against the debris fencing, but also holding their two-year-old up against it you do have to do something.

I tend to point out the dangers and mention that as I'm signed on, I'm covered by insurance if anything should happen.

Paul, also a marshal

[bauble]

Originally Posted by bella

god, i know what you mean, i was at that wec meeting last year and must have had at least 10 different people point me in the direction of a car park. that i could have found on my own. ffs.

makes you wonder exactly where the money changes hands, whose hands it leaves, and what silverstone have to provide as a result of that money changing hands that really has no bearing on the actual event itself....

I have no doubt that people are needed to direct and control spectators to some extent at bigger meetings, and it is probably cheaper to employ outside contractors on a day-to-day basis rather than have permanent staff. We regular race goers tend to know what we are about, but Silverstone like any other circuit is constantly trying to attract families, and new spectators, and these need direction, plus it must also provide a degree of confidence to see 'uniformed' staff around.

With regard to spectator photographic opportunities, I agree that while it may be difficult, circuits should try to cater for what is quite a large number of their regular customer base who bring a camera, often the main reason for coming in the first place.


Now when I'm in charge ..........................!

[bella]

yeah but how *do* you cater for them?

photo windows are all very well but they do come with the risks of being near a catch fence which is suspect is why we don't see many of them that are spectator accessible.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by bella

god, i know what you mean, i was at that wec meeting last year and must have had at least 10 different people point me in the direction of a car park. that i could have found on my own. ffs.

You'd think so. However I remember once going to a touring car meeting at Brands in the late '90s and there was nobody directing people to car parking in a field. It turns out that the public can't be trusted to do it themselves. Parking next to a car seems to be beyond the mental capacity of most.

Since then I've welcomed it, it just isn't worth the pain of a stupid doing something that causes a blockage.

It does appear to be a waste of ticket money for those that have a bit of sense. To quote Absolutely Fabulous, "Tax? It's to build railings to stop stupid people running into the road ... Tax the stupid!"

[bella]

to be fair i was actually parking in the middle of the circuit, and didn't require somebody every 200 yards checking my car pass and pointing me down the road when they're trying to get as many cars parked as possible in a big field i totally get it

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by bella

yeah but how *do* you cater for them?

photo windows are all very well but they do come with the risks of being near a catch fence which is suspect is why we don't see many of them that are spectator accessible.

There are actually a few photo holes in the fencing that isn't around the new(er) loop section. There is often a hole on the exit of Chapel and one in the middle of Becketts. I guess it also comes from the fact that Silverstone is a (grade 1?) FIA track that it has to be smothered with catch fencing. Go to Mallory, Oulton Park, Thruxton, Knockhill, and catch fencing is indeed a rare thing. I hope it stays that way, but I doubt it will in the long term.

[Tim the Grey]

Originally Posted by Robin_D

Tim, I don't beleive that this is exactly the right attitude. When on post I will always try to consider the welfare of spectators. Marshals do provide (or at least should provide) customer service to spectators and photographers.

I will always treat what is happening on the track as a priority, but spectator safety is on the agenda. I really don't want people getting hurt and as such, spectators may be asked (politely) to move on from a prohibited area for their own safety.

Please don't see it as hassling you. We're not all jobsworths.

Robin - Marshal

I apologise, and withdraw the word "hassling"...
I've worked as a marshal, and still have a BMRMC green badge somewhere.
But you should be fully engaged with what's on track, NOT be worrying about, or be distracted by, me.

My original point remains? Why can I shoot in there for a ages one day, and not be allowed to stop the next?
Silverstone need to clarify this... To YOU, the marshals. So you have the same message to we, the punters.

Thank you.

[Robin_D]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

My original point remains? Why can I shoot in there for a ages one day, and not be allowed to stop the next?
Silverstone need to clarify this... To YOU, the marshals. So you have the same message to we, the punters.

Thank you.

That would depend on the area and the circumstances.

The link road by the loop isn't meant for spectators and on bigger meetings this is enforced. On smaller meetings however the security is not in place and I believe you're free to walk through.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Robin_D

The link road by the loop isn't meant for spectators and on bigger meetings this is enforced. On smaller meetings however the security is not in place and I believe you're free to walk through.

exactly, this is what i said before about how it's primarily designed for f1 and motogp where there's no access to the "wing" pit building for joe average and the only people wanting to use the photos are the professionals. the windows need to be closed properly by silverstone after each big event to prevent confusion.

a thought: why do we consider taking fence free quality photographs at motorsport to be a "right" anyway? that's not meant to be an aggressive question, just a... well, thought.

[Tim the Grey]

Because I can do exactly that at Spa, thank you...

[brands]

Originally Posted by Robin_D

The link road by the loop isn't meant for spectators and on bigger meetings this is enforced. On smaller meetings however the security is not in place and I believe you're free to walk through.

Two bigger meetings I have attended are the Classic and WEC. Although they have spectator buses running through this area there has also been a walkway for those who choose to go on foot as well.

[brands]

Originally Posted by bella

a thought: why do we consider taking fence free quality photographs at motorsport to be a "right" anyway? that's not meant to be an aggressive question, just a... well, thought.

I have no rights and when the time comes that there isn't enough decent locations at a circuit I will either leave the camera at home or not bother with the circuit.
As the fences increased and pushed back at Brands Hatch so my attending has dropped. Now it's one day a season and that will be when there are running on the GP loop.
With Silverstone there are still a few locations on the GP track, a couple are through fence slots. I can't really see the difference between the one at the Loop and the one at Becketts myself. Given they are the same size, both have a rail behind which spectators stand. In fact the cars will be going much faster at Becketts.
To be honest Silverstone is a nightmare with or without a camera at a bigger event.
How many times during the WEC 3 days did G4S turf spectators out of grandstands one day, only for them to be open the next. The grandstand on the inside of Vale close to the Wing was cleared at least 6 times that I saw on the Friday while I was on the outside of the track. How about locking the entry points
It's a reason I love the International Trophy meeting. Great access to pits and paddock, no hassle and you can drive around the outside of the circuit.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by bella

yeah but how *do* you cater for them?

photo windows are all very well but they do come with the risks of being near a catch fence which is suspect is why we don't see many of them that are spectator accessible.

There are places where one is above the catch fencing and can get good pictures, and it would not cost a fortune to provide more such spots, and probably a small charge would not be too onerous for the dedicated snapper.