FIRST Allegation of 2008 (or is it first excuse?)

Gt_R · 23 Jan 2008, 11:29 (Ref:2111884)

Well, if you had hoped for a clean season (or at least a clean start)...Trulli burst the bubble...

Trulli alleges that some teams are working with some form of launch assistance. Source? Toyota receiving conflicting information...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64806

... or is it excuse in antipation of a poor start to the season?

Ralf's Girl · 23 Jan 2008, 11:43 (Ref:2111889)

I wouldn't be surprised if some teams are finding ways to minimise wheelspin off the line and get better starts - finding a way to use launch/traction control when it's outlawed would hardly be a new thing.

But when the Toyotas get overtaken by everyone off the line in Australia, at least we'll know they're rubbish but honest.

Marbot · 23 Jan 2008, 12:01 (Ref:2111894)

Well the regulation is very clear on this.

Article 9.3

"No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle demand by the driver."

"Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted."

Rgms320 · 23 Jan 2008, 12:14 (Ref:2111904)

And if that wasn't enough, my spies tell me that Ferrari has all the technical details of McLaren's ECU!

Knowlesy · 23 Jan 2008, 12:54 (Ref:2111929)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Well the regulation is very clear on this.

Forgive me for not feeling at all comforted by this!

Sodemo · 23 Jan 2008, 13:20 (Ref:2111959)

Whoops!

So is the ECU hackable then?

Rgms320 · 23 Jan 2008, 13:33 (Ref:2111971)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Whoops!

So is the ECU hackable then?

Oops.... lest I start rumors, *all* the teams have the details of McLaren's ECU, since they're all (theoretically) using the same unit.

That was the foundation of the joke.

werner · 23 Jan 2008, 13:39 (Ref:2111976)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

"Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted."

Since revs going up fast is an indication of wheelspin, this means that rev-o-meters are banned in 2008?

Sodemo · 23 Jan 2008, 13:39 (Ref:2111977)

I don't get it, if its a sealed unit then how can teams be "altering" it?

mjstallard · 23 Jan 2008, 13:45 (Ref:2111980)

Quite simply, they can't with electronics or the ECU:

Quote:

8.2.1 All components of the engine and gearbox, including clutch, differential and all associated actuators must
be controlled by an Electronic Control Unit (ECU) which has been manufactured by an FIA designated
supplier to a specification determined by the FIA.
The ECU may only be used with FIA approved software and may only be connected to the control system
wiring loom, sensors and actuators in an manner specified by the FIA.

8.2.2 All control sensors, actuators and FIA monitoring sensors will be specified and homologated by the FIA.
Each and every component of the control system will be sealed and uniquely identified and their identities
tracked through their life cycle.
These components and units may not be disassembled or modified in any way and seals and identifiers
must remain intact and legible.

Unless it's some sort of mechanical trickery, of course.

JeremySmith · 23 Jan 2008, 15:11 (Ref:2112031)

God here we go again...

chillibowl · 23 Jan 2008, 15:22 (Ref:2112039)

on one hand it nice to see Trulli speaking up about a potential problem.

on the other he could have no idea what he's talking about.

but hopefully just by saying it, the FIA can get ahead of it and issue a clarification...unless Toyota choose not to launch an official complaint and just build some type of TC for themselves...so yes here we go again...good times

Sodemo · 23 Jan 2008, 16:40 (Ref:2112094)

Maybe the FIA needs to tell the other 21 drivers to stop going "chchcchchchch" when they accelerate out of tight corners...?

duke_toaster · 23 Jan 2008, 16:41 (Ref:2112097)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I don't get it, if its a sealed unit then how can teams be "altering" it?

The teams program the software that goes on it, you can't use the same software on one engine to another.

Sodemo · 23 Jan 2008, 16:49 (Ref:2112100)

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

The teams program the software that goes on it, you can't use the same software on one engine to another.

Eh?

You have got to be kidding? So the teams put their own software on the ECU? How in a cat in hells chance do the FIA police it then?

Surely its no different to running your own ECU then?

Alan Raine · 23 Jan 2008, 16:55 (Ref:2112103)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Eh?

You have got to be kidding? So the teams put their own software on the ECU? How in a cat in hells chance do the FIA police it then?

Surely its no different to running your own ECU then?

I would think the software is already on it. It's just set up for each teams engines etc.

mjstallard · 23 Jan 2008, 16:57 (Ref:2112105)

Aye, the software has to be FIA approved (as above), but I'm not sure what this means. I always thought it meant that it there is a generic piece of software that everyone uses otherwise it totally negates the point of having a single ECU in the first place.

naughtymutt · 23 Jan 2008, 17:25 (Ref:2112117)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjstallard

Aye, the software has to be FIA approved (as above), but I'm not sure what this means. I always thought it meant that it there is a generic piece of software that everyone uses otherwise it totally negates the point of having a single ECU in the first place.

no, the FIA can control the input/output from the ECU.

However, what about them using a system external to the ECU (utilising the same sensors). How difficult would it be to measure engine RPM / Roadspeed and wheel speed and then cut engine spark.

Also is there anything stopping the teams from even just having a light on the dash board telling the driver that the wheels are spinning and to get off the gas.

mjstallard · 23 Jan 2008, 18:01 (Ref:2112134)

Hmm..very good point - there's nothing in the rules about having two data paths coming from an FIA approved sensor. The ECU's connectivity is defined as "may only be connected to the control system
wiring loom, sensors and actuators in an manner specified by the FIA.".

Note nothing about the sensors themselves. The sensors are sealed and can't be altered, but what about the connectors and the the bit between the loom and the sensor?

There is this regarding the loom:

Quote:

8.2.3 The control system wiring loom connectivity will be specified by the FIA.

But it's rather disconcertingly vague. I can't see anything explicitly outlawing the connection of sensors to a "secondary" ECU type device. I also can't see anything saying the FIA ECU must have absolute, unhindered control of the engine, clutch, etc.

I am but a mere Software Engineer with a headache and a lack of knowledge about rules and regulations, so I could be barking up a tree in the wrong forest. I wouldn't be surprised if these rules could well come under review and some tightening though...

Chiefy · 23 Jan 2008, 18:25 (Ref:2112144)

The silliest thing about Trulli's allegation is that he says he won't name names. If "cheating" is disadvantaging his team then surely that's exactly what he ought to do, to ensure a level playing field by Melbourne?

Or he could just own up to being a shadow of the speed demon we anticipated back in the late 1990s.

Marbot · 23 Jan 2008, 18:30 (Ref:2112148)

Quote:

Originally Posted by naughtymutt

Also is there anything stopping the teams from even just having a light on the dash board telling the driver that the wheels are spinning and to get off the gas.

Well this regulation is supposed to.

"Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted."

But they're only words aren't they.

And if you'd thought about tinkering with the ECU or adding your own or taking bits off,then this regulation is supposed to stop you.

"No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle demand by the driver."

But again...................

The regulation isn't the mandatory fitting of a standard ECU.The regulation basically forbids traction control.

ss_collins · 23 Jan 2008, 19:01 (Ref:2112166)

Are teams working on start systems? yes! Mike Gascoyne says as much in our next issue - I'll not give you full bit for obvious reasons but...

Quote:

If you went to Jerez or Barcelona [testing] you'll have seen everyone doing starts and smoking tyres and bogging down and so on. But will that be the case come Melbourne? No, because we'll have developed systems that give the driver better control

I have to say I'm astonished at how outspoken some of the enginneers are getting - they all seem very very fed up!

Pingguest · 23 Jan 2008, 19:07 (Ref:2112168)

So, the justification for the standard ECU won't stand even before its introduction. What a shame for the FIA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Whoops!

So is the ECU hackable then?

Every computer system is hackable. It only depends on how much time and money you want and can spend on it. As a matter of fact, the teams are willing and able to spend milions on it.

RotorFan · 24 Jan 2008, 22:33 (Ref:2112941)

Proof again that the regs should be opened up, not controlled.

While they can't modify the ECU, surely they could piggyback a device, or maybe develop an identical-looking unit which behaves one way on the track and another when the driver pushes a button at the end of the race...?

Sodemo · 25 Jan 2008, 11:43 (Ref:2113293)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotorFan

Proof again that the regs should be opened up, not controlled.

While they can't modify the ECU, surely they could piggyback a device, or maybe develop an identical-looking unit which behaves one way on the track and another when the driver pushes a button at the end of the race...?

In other words, have an ECU after the standard ECU?

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