Seat Belts and the FIA

[fangio]

Can anyone give me a good reason, apart from the FIA's interest to collect money for the approval labels, why we have to replace our racing belts every 4 years or so in Historic Racing?

Some of my cars only get used 2 or 3 times a year and buying new belts every 4 years is just a waste of money.

[terence]

I can relate to that Fangio,my belts have been used THREE times and I now need to replace them.But when you consider they have been in the car four years,I just have to roll over and accept it because no way will I race with anything that might be susspect.

[fangio]

I agree, but I do not think that 5 year old belts are any worse than new belts, as long as they have not been damaged or in an accident.
I'd like to hear the opinion of a manufacturer about this.
We keep belts in our road cars for 15 years and use them every day.....
Racing is different, but I don't think that the 5 yr rule is anything less than taking money from us!!

[Eddy V]

First of all, belts are homologated for 5 years after their date of fabrication. Not that is that much difference.
I guess the FIA thinks that racers use their cars about 24-7 like the big F1, GT, Touring whatever teams. Or that every driver does about 25 6 hour endurance events per year. And if belts are used that often, then yes they should be replaced, but who of the normal people use them that often?

A manufacturer told me once, a long time ago, that racing belts are (were) not as durable as the street versions. Like he said: just feel the "texture".

But I agree, why should a perfecly good belt be replaced by a newer one if nothing happened to it and isn't over used year after year?
But then again, how on earth are we going to check this? I have seen single seaters left out in the rain and sun for days.

Maybe there should be somebody allowed to check and give them a longer lease of life. But who is going to take the risk?

I've been told that the German ASN is thinking (planning?) to allow the use of belts for 10 years, but only in Germany and for national events.



And now I'm off to wash my mouth out.

For sale: FIA belts, brand new.

[simon drabble]

I sympathize but a difficult one to police unless everyone carried a racing log book like a plane does - mind you the extra admin cost might be more than a new set of belts!

[LYNX]

Why do we seem to have change for the sake of change? Is it too much to ask that scientific proof is offered that is also statisically sound! Where are their references and how large is the cohort etc etc............?

[Tim Falce]

I suppose if just one person with a set of 6 yer old belts gets seriously injured or killed then the **** would hit the fan and the FIA/MSA/Whoever would be wide open for a law suit.
I think it's called covering your arse.

[zefarelly]

my belts 'expire' at the end of 2008, 5 years service with no 'extreme' use, ie no shunts, thats £30 a year for the potential to save my life, pretty cheap, even with my big brain to protect

having inspected my belts recently I can see wear on them in places, through the seat holes etc, very minor it must be said, but being a tart I like things to look clean and smart, if nothing else that philosophy helps no end in spotting faults etc. So I'd replace them anyway.

we've had this discussion before with seats, and the same applies, they too go through unseen stresses, every corner at speed . . . how else do you decifer safe 'life'

[socram]

I have pestered our governing body here for the last 4 years on this very subject. At long last, I believe that along with Australia, they are looking into it.

They are indeed just covering their exhaust pipes. Running a Marcos, means that sitting below the metal frame, a 5 point harness is essential, but the answer I got from MSNZ was that they were concerned with the implications of a failed out of date belt on them.

Their technical staff effectively said that if I was worried about the expense, I should fit a 4 point belt with a longer lifespan. When I suggested that the 3" webbing in my existing 5 point was perfect (I've been in the sewn products trades for over 30 years), and that if I fitted an inferior 4 point 2" harness, and was unfortunate enough the have a biggie, my widow would sue them for forcing me to use an inferior safett item...

Its a farce, and we should challenge the FIA and our local bodies to apply common sense. Remember the FIA takes 1000's for granting its approval for even the most basic of safety products. Why?

[GORDON STREETER]

I wonder if any of the banger boys that swap belts for most meetings and leave them in the p*****g rain week after week ,have any belt problems. One things for sure , they have more crashes than us. Maybe somebody connected with the ovals can give us some feedback ? The same goes for off road open buggies caked in mud then using the pressure washer to clean everything including the belts !!!!

[zefarelly]

given they're made of nylon/man made fibres I'd say they're pretty durable, but will degrade over time in UV light (if the sun ever comes out!)

good point though, we all know they stretch a lot which is a design factor, I'm sure someones done tests which give alternatives, like bruising, or broken bones for new and old ?

[Eddy V]

I used to change my belts after about 4 seasons even long before there was an FIA approval, but then again I was a bit overzealous when it came to safety issues. State of the art rollcage, great seat and more.
A marshalling racer!

[GORDON STREETER]

Rather than worrying whether seat belts are going to suddenly "fail", the mounting points are often overlooked on some poorly prepared racers (especially saloons). Many a time we have pulled the mountings out of the floor on MOTs on 15 year old Fiesta/ Escorts, and I have noticed that several racers utilise the original front two mounting points !

[zefarelly]

goofd point, the same can be said for seats bolted down to foil thin floors with lead self tappers!

[Hagis]

So read in Appx J Art. 253:6 what FIA says

"If possible the anchorage point orginally mounted by car manufacturer on the C-pillar should be used."
I know A and B but where is C?
Of course this is not for Appx K cars, but they could be rather old anyway.

[GORDON STREETER]

I would read that as upper rear seat belt fixings, they "shouldn't" be rusty.

[terence]

Perhaps the FIA thinks that Harnesses are one of those things that gets taken for granted?

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

the same can be said for seats bolted down to foil thin floors with lead self tappers!

Or the seat that broke away at Thruxton on a Yank Tank that was fitted with rivnuts !!!!!!!!!

[zefarelly]

rivnuts, barely strong enough to keep the lid on a hifi amp !

[LYNX]

I still have not read one good reason as to the time scale the FIA have chosen for the life of a seat belt - or have I missed something?

[terence]

No, not at all,but as was mentioned in another thread,how could the organizing bodies be sure that everyones harness's comes up to scratch.It would only take one accident with faulty equipment to make the situation worse than what it is.

[GORDON STREETER]

I think they are just covering there backs in this sue culture world.
Everything has a life, and I think the powers that be possibly know how long they would probably be ok for, and then halve it !!
It would be interesting to find out if the "tests" or whatever, are carried out by the manufacturers or a "really" independent firm with no ties at all.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

rivnuts, barely strong enough to keep the lid on a hifi amp !

They wouldn't hold my Fender amp together

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I think they are just covering there backs in this sue culture world.
Everything has a life, and I think the powers that be possibly know how long they would probably be ok for, and then halve it !!
It would be interesting to find out if the "tests" or whatever, are carried out by the manufacturers or a "really" independent firm with no ties at all.

I sometimes read this ''FIA opinion stuff'' with a sense of unreality.
First the FIA is in effect you or even us .It exists as a Federation of National motor clubs-MSA,CSAI FFSA etc .Every decision that is taken is approved by your representative on the World Council-every single one. If you do not like those decisions you should tell the MSA representative either directly or through your motor club. That is how a federation works.
As I understand it the testing is done to a world standard by an independant test house for the FIA/Manufacturers. The manufacturers do not have a time scale imposed on them it is consensually agreed -but on the basis of belts being used at a given frequency-weekly or whatever- and the safe life of those belts in that usage. If your usage falls short well thats tough-you pay the same Road Tax however much you use the road, TV tax however much you watch the tV etc- do some more racing to get value for money.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

- do some more racing to get value for money.

Send me the cheque Jeremy and I will race every weekend