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3 Jan 2023, 12:55 (Ref:4138809) | #1 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Most successful team in F1 history
I have created this thread following a discussion point in the Quiz thread in the F1 sub-forum.
The discussion revolves around the legitimacy and legacy of F1 teams' historical records. And so, for reference, I have decided to trace the many considerations in play. From my perspective, here’s how I see it through the span of history. Or if you want, in the context of the quiz thread, what would be the answer to the question ‘which four teams are the most successful in F1 history’? (if asked at any point in time) The starting point is 1946 – with the first race that was contested to F1 regulations. That was won by an Alfa-Romeo. The following year, the first ‘Grandes Épreuves’ season was held featuring 4 races. The table now reads
Following this through, the first time we have four teams on the list is after the 1949 season:
From 1950 onwards, I would exclude the Indy 500 winners as that event was not held to F1 regulations. We do now have a new category though; races that were held as part of the WDC. Last edited by crmalcolm; 3 Jan 2023 at 13:10. |
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3 Jan 2023, 13:28 (Ref:4138817) | #2 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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For 1952 and 1953, with the WDC being contested to F2 regulations, this also clouds the records in the early years of F1. They are included in the overall wins in the table, but with a new column that excludes F1 WDC wins.
1954 saw the first wins for the Mercedes, and also definitively moved them ahead of Talbot-Lago. Talbot-Lago are removed from the table at this point, with their record coming from pre-WDC results.
1958 is the next time that results could be seen as diverging again. This was the first season that a manufacturers’ trophy was awarded. It was not referred to as the WCC then, but in effect is the same record. As a result, if this is the marker for results, you have Vanwall and Cooper staking a claim to be one of the top four teams.
1959 sees BRM stake a claim for being in the top four WCC teams, with a single win.
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3 Jan 2023, 15:08 (Ref:4138828) | #3 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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In 1974, Cooper drops out of contention for a ‘top four’
And by the end of 1975, the top four unifies with Brabham moving ahead of BRM and Alfa-Romeo.
In 1976, the order changed again with McLaren moving into the top four.
In 1980, Brabham swaps with Tyrrell.
By the end of 1987, Williams moved into the top four and replaced Brabham.
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3 Jan 2023, 15:29 (Ref:4138829) | #4 | ||
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Great work 'crm' on all the preparation and background you have put forward for this more than interesting discussion point.
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4 Jan 2023, 08:09 (Ref:4138867) | #5 | ||
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In my tracking of wins - it is just getting interesting (in terms of legacy) as Benetton/Renault is moving towards the top four, with a split history for Renault....
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4 Jan 2023, 08:57 (Ref:4138870) | #6 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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It is not until after the 2012 season when we see the next claim for inclusion in the top four. This comes from the Lotus name, which now has a split history between the original Lotus team and the continuation of the Toleman team.
By 2016, the top four is contested again with the combined results of the Tyrrell team surpassing the record of Lotus (as a name or the original team).
In only two more years, Mercedes passes Lotus as a name on the list during 2018– and if you discount the Tyrrell (legacy) results Mercedes is in the top four in its own right.
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4 Jan 2023, 09:24 (Ref:4138872) | #7 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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And at the end of the 2022 season, what does the table look like?
Depending on your interpretation, the top four is either: Ferrari-McLaren-Tyrrell-Williams Ferrari-McLaren-Mercedes-Williams For those interested, the full list including combined and separated results reads:
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4 Jan 2023, 10:41 (Ref:4138881) | #8 | |
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No surprise to Ferrari on top and it says a lot that the current Merc isn't even close enough
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4 Jan 2023, 10:53 (Ref:4138890) | #9 | |||
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Quote:
It took Ferrari 50 years to reach this same number of wins. Their best spell saw them take 116 race wins in 18 seasons (1996-2013). It took McLaren 30 years to reach 116 wins (1968-1998). Their shortest span for 116 wins was 1984 to 2005. Williams took 26 years to get their first 113 wins. |
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4 Jan 2023, 11:10 (Ref:4138892) | #10 | |
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More races in a season probably helps Merc though
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4 Jan 2023, 12:03 (Ref:4138897) | #11 | |
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Thanks for this, crmalcolm, it's pretty much exactly what I was hoping for.
Just a question, what is 'Matra/Ligier'? Is this the Matra that Jackie Stewart drove for in 1968-69 and Ken Tyrrell managed initially, and that Chris Amon was last to race for in 1972, because I never knew they turned into Ligier who wouldn't appear until 1976, four years later? Also, when Tyrrell did form their own team in 1970, they raced a March, so have you given this race win to Tyrrell or to March (I would have chosen Tyrrell). In terms of which version should be used, I would certainly go with the one linking Tyrrell to Mercedes, Toleman to Alpine etc. Definitely not names, Enstone Lotus was not Colin Chapman Lotus. I don't feel like Mercedes is the same as Tyrrell, but I suppose Ferrari still exists long after the death of Enzo Ferrari, Williams is still going without Frank Williams, Brabham continued without Jack Brabham and Lotus continued without Colin Chapman. So just because Ken Tyrrell is no longer involved doesn't make it not the same team. But maybe it is different with manufacturers because Mercedes, Renault and Alfa Romeo are still the same company despite running teams at different times in the sports history. It is certainly not a straightforward question. |
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4 Jan 2023, 12:47 (Ref:4138898) | #12 | |||
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Quote:
To answer the Matra and Tyrrell questions. There is a slight flaw in trying to answer the question - I have opted to list all of the results under the constructor. I guess the title of the thread would be more accurate as 'Most successful constructor in F1 history' - but then we are getting even more murky with constructors vs teams in the early years. What is 'Matra/Ligier'? The first wins I have down for Matra come from the 1968 season. According to my history the Matra F1 team's assets were acquired by Ligier in 1972 so I saw the Ligier entry as a continuation of the team (akin to Toleman-Benneton). Of course, some will see this differently, which is why Matra and Ligier both have separate listings in the table too. Have you given this [1970] race win to Tyrrell or to March (I would have chosen Tyrrell). It is in the records against March (as the constructor) - but theoretically it could also be given to Tyrrell as well. I've added one to Tyrrell in my spreadsheet, so they now read as 149 wins. |
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4 Jan 2023, 12:49 (Ref:4138899) | #13 | ||
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That is a very valid point. I will look into this further and see how the quantity of races in each year changes how we view the success.
Mercedes’ recent record is queried against the others due to there being more races in a season – which raises the question of whether 116 wins in 12 years is as good as 116 wins in 18 years (for example). To answer this, I am going to look at whole season records against the total number of races, and see if there is a conclusive marker of most successful period. For simplicity, any record of less than 10 wins is discounted as well as Indy 500 rounds. I am also only including records set over at least three years, to prevent single-season dominance from crowding the records. The list includes records that are greater than 30% win rate, limited to the best 5 periods for each entrant. Last edited by crmalcolm; 4 Jan 2023 at 13:18. |
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4 Jan 2023, 14:37 (Ref:4138907) | #14 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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The first entry on the list comes from the Alfa-Romeo team from 1946. Reaching a total of 13 wins by the end of the 1950 season, their record was 13 wins from 20 races.
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4 Jan 2023, 15:30 (Ref:4138915) | #15 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The next team to reach the 10 win milestone is Ferrari in the 1952 season. This sees them join the list in addition to Alfa’s results so far.
The 1953 season saw Ferrari set a new record and was a more successful period than Alfa-Romeo’s previously. With this record stretching back from the first WDC, this is the new benchmark with just Alfa’s best record from pre-1950 left in for reference.
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5 Jan 2023, 12:00 (Ref:4138975) | #16 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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With the 1952 and 1953 WDC seasons using F2 regulations, this is also a talking point over the validity of the records. As with the pre-1950 Alfa records, I will leave Ferrari’s best record spanning those seasons in as a marker.
The arrival of Cooper saw a new name enter the list after the 1960 season, with a 3-year record of 13 wins from 27 races.
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5 Jan 2023, 12:07 (Ref:4138976) | #17 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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1961 sees two more records added to the list, with Cooper completing another 3 year run of 11 from 25 and Ferrari setting the first purely F1-WDC record of 15 from 49 over 6 years.
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5 Jan 2023, 12:20 (Ref:4138978) | #18 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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In 1963 Lotus joins the club, with a 3-year record of 13 from 27 at 48.15%
Further wins through to the end of 1965 saw another 3-year record of 16 from 30 at an even better 53.33% alongside a 4-year record of 19 from 39.
*2 – includes pre-1950 results |
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5 Jan 2023, 12:36 (Ref:4138979) | #19 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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When you include the 1960 season in the Lotus record, they also have the first run of over 50 races to be >30% win ratio.
The next run of seasons comes for Lotus at the end of the 1968 season with 3-year record of 10 from 32, which they improve on the following year with a 3-year record of 11 from 34.
*2 – includes pre-1950 results |
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5 Jan 2023, 12:55 (Ref:4138980) | #20 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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After the 1972 season, Tyrrell makes an appearance on the list with a 3-year record of 12 from 36. Lotus also sets another benchmark with a second 6-year spell in the least of 22 from 70.
Tyrrell improves on their record in 1973 and records a 16 from 38. Also at the end of the 1973 season, Lotus records the first >100 record of 36 from 104. Combined, the Tyrrell and Lotus records after 1973 start to dominate the list.
*2 – includes pre-1950 results |
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5 Jan 2023, 13:02 (Ref:4138981) | #21 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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After the 1974 season, Lotus and Tyrrell both post an improvement against their existing records.
*2 – includes pre-1950 results |
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5 Jan 2023, 13:07 (Ref:4138982) | #22 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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In 1976, Ferrari make another entry on the list with a 3-year record of 15 from 45.
*2 – includes pre-1950 results |
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5 Jan 2023, 13:09 (Ref:4138983) | #23 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Ferrari improves their best 3-year record in 1977 with a 16 from 47.
*2 – includes pre-1950 results |
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5 Jan 2023, 13:15 (Ref:4138985) | #24 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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In 1978, Ferrari set their first >50 race record of 21 from 63. They also matched their previous 15 from 49 record at the end of 1978.
*2 – includes pre-1950 results |
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5 Jan 2023, 13:20 (Ref:4138987) | #25 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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In 1979, Ferrari improved their >50 race record to 27 from 78.
*2 – includes pre-1950 results |
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