[WEC] When 2 become 3

[Adam43]

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...for-all-races/

WEC might make it compulsory to have three drivers in each race.

I’m with Andrea Piccini (who uses three drivers). Let the others do what they want.

I like the variety. For some teams it is better from a logistics and driver calendar perspective.

[flatlandsman]

It is also cheaper to have two drivers potentially, two salaries!!

[broadrun96]

Another FIA attempt to create a fix to a problem that doesn't exist

[Gerard C]

I appreciate your wording broad! When you think some have a nice salary for this kind of thing.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Another FIA attempt to create a fix to a problem that doesn't exist

Doesn't IMSA kind of try do the same with mandated 4 drivers for Daytona?
https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/i...s-for-enduros/
There's also 3 drivers mandate coming there for 6 hour races. The ACO just follows the idea.

[Adam43]

Not a fan of that either. (why are we winking?)

Porsche, this year, is considering only two for Indy.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by tomcug

Doesn't IMSA kind of try do the same with mandated 4 drivers for Daytona?
https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/i...s-for-enduros/
There's also 3 drivers mandate coming there for 6 hour races. The ACO just follows the idea.

As always, it's the trend-setting SRO that both the ACO & IMSA are copying. Place your bets on mandated pit stop times in hypercar within the next five years*

This one's micro-managing from series organisers:

1) Control the number of drivers, and therefore the range of pit strategies. When the cars are already so close in pace, why risk "spoiling" the on-track action with unorthodox strategies that put someone half a lap ahead?

2) Control the priority of the teams/drivers to be sure that it is WEC first and foremost. Why would anyone want to waste their time with Formula E or other endurance series on a WEC weekend?

In case it wasn't obvious, I hope this does not come to pass.

*It already happens for ELMS LMP3, so the precedent is there.

[joeb]

At Le Mans a driver can do a triple or sometimes longer stint (3+ hours). That means a two driver pairing could easily handle a 6 hour race, correct? Not sure how a 3rd driver being required would solve anything.

[Adam43]

Yeah, there is nothing to solve.

Are they trying to get more driver entrants? Not really sure why. So more people get practice in the cars before the big race?

Maybe they perceive it as unfair on those who bring three as there are some advantages to only running two? It gives some flexibility in strategy not having to force a third driver. Also out of three drivers one will be slower than the others so if you don’t run them.

I’m struggling to come up with a reason.

Let’s keep the variety. And the flexibility for teams to structure and run their team how they like.

[S griffin]

I see no reason for this rule either. Nothing is wrong if some teams don’t wanna run 3 drivers, so let it be

[chernaudi]

Not to mention that most teams do already run 3 driver line up for the 6 hour races (probably because they're the teams' intended LM line ups). But I remember back in the day that for the ALMS/non-LM races Audi teams would usually only run 3 drivers for Sebring only. Aside from 2000 and one car in 2008 Audi teams also ran 2 drivers usually for Petit Le Mans (1000 miles/10 hours+1 lap whichever came first at that time). In '00 Audi ran their Sebring driver line ups, and in '08 they had McNish and Capello sandwich Pirro for that year.


I also believe that Panoz in LMP900 also often ran 2 driver line ups for PLM in that era (at least for 2001). Though I do believe that for PLM three drivers were common for gentleman driver/pro-am driver teams across the board, and three drivers were frequently used in the GT classes by most teams back then as well.


Granted, it wasn't into the Group C era that three driver crew line ups became common at Le Mans, and even then early on the Porsche factory team ran two drivers mostly until the mid '80s.


I agree with the comments that this is a non-issue/solution searching for a problem. But then again the SRO and IMSA are mandating/recommending driver line up min/max limits in their series, so the ACO might be following a trend here.

[v8supes]

Genuinely dont understand this at all. Whats the issue with two drivers or three drivers? Not going to lie, didnt even notice if a team was running 2 or 3 at any point during the season.

[joeb]

Oddly enough, this was on S366 yesterday:

IMSA has done away with mandating three-driver lineups for the six-hour races in GTP and GTD Pro for 2025

[tomcug]

They did? Daytona 4 drivers mandate still remains?

[Adam43]

Not in GTDPro and GTP
https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/i...tions-in-2025/

Originally Posted by IMSA

In consideration of challenges with global championships scheduling and respect for operating budgets, IMSA has elected to revert the proposed 2025 combinations to remain consistent with the 2024 regulations

[tomcug]

I missed that info completely, thx. Wonder if they plan to try force new rules again in 2026.

[veeten]

It could be because the problem that has plagued many teams and drivers, especially the last two seasons: scheduling collisions.

Too many times that drivers had to announce that they would have to miss participating in a WEC or IMSA race due to prior commitment in another series race. Especially for independent teams that usually have a pair of drivers. Having a third, ready to go, takes a lot of pressure off the manager.

I'm sorry, but did anyone even bother to think in this direction during this disscussion, or am I the only one, yet again?...

[J Jay]

The proposal is not for three drivers of which you can pick two to race - it's three drivers who must all race and do their mandated time. If you thought in another direction, you would have realised the absurdity of forcing teams to have (and therefore pay for) three drivers for the full season, only to tell the teams that they can choose to have one driver in the back of the garage each race.

Under the auspices of "driver safety" this is a proposal designed to force drivers/teams to commit to WEC and therefore give the series first priority when the clashes occur. It's the ACO's prerogative, but as IMSA realised with their delay of a similar proposal, it's a quick way to give everyone a headache and wipe out any good will you've built up with your primary stakeholders.

[chernaudi]

"Driver Safety" my... Audi did fine at PLM with running 2 drivers in most of their entries over the years, and that was a 1000 mile/10 hour race. This is some ploy by the ACO.

[veeten]

Originally Posted by J Jay

The proposal is not for three drivers of which you can pick two to race - it's three drivers who must all race and do their mandated time. If you thought in another direction, you would have realised the absurdity of forcing teams to have (and therefore pay for) three drivers for the full season, only to tell the teams that they can choose to have one driver in the back of the garage each race.

Definitely fits in the longer races (8, 10/1000km, 12, 24 hours), as that is when they have 3/4 drivers. As for the sprint to 6 hours, consider it insurance... you never really notice it until that moment comes when you need him, or her. N24 and the 24 hours of Spa require similar staffing, not to mention many GT series around the world, namely SRO. Hypercar/GTP, not the same as you're looking at Gold/Silver drivers, which can lead to emptying out P2. And whom will start complaining then?...

Under the auspices of "driver safety" this is a proposal designed to force drivers/teams to commit to WEC and give it first priority when the clashes occur. It's the ACO's prerogative, but it comes off as micro-managing.

ACO only manages one race, albeit the most famous. It's FIA and IMSA that have to deal with such things, as well as sponsors both race and teams, for the entire season.

[veeten]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

"Driver Safety" my... Audi did fine at PLM with running 2 drivers in most of their entries over the years, and that was a 1000 mile/10 hour race. This is some ploy by the ACO.

We could say the same of Briggs Cunningham, in '53 drove 14 hours straight in his C-4R. The next year, the ACO changed rules as to how long a driver could be in the car at one time. Change happens, man.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by veeten

I'm sorry, but did anyone even bother to think in this direction during this disscussion, or am I the only one, yet again?...

But that's not what they meant, in fact it makes it HARDER for the smaller teams as they could have 3 contracted and only use any combination of 2 most of the season. Now they would have to have to use all 3 all the time making conflicts more likely not less and drivers/teams have to negotiate which series is first.


The only thing it works for is the FIA promoting drivers out of feeder series and they need a ride. Makes more seats available as drivers can't commit to more than one, maybe 2 series any more.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by veeten

It could be because the problem that has plagued many teams and drivers, especially the last two seasons: scheduling collisions.

Too many times that drivers had to announce that they would have to miss participating in a WEC or IMSA race due to prior commitment in another series race. Especially for independent teams that usually have a pair of drivers. Having a third, ready to go, takes a lot of pressure off the manager.

I'm sorry, but did anyone even bother to think in this direction during this disscussion, or am I the only one, yet again?...

I’m sorry, it was mentioned in the opening post! Except, of course, the other way round. Being able to run only two drivers gives way more flexibility for the manager and helps this issue!

Originally Posted by veeten

We could say the same of Briggs Cunningham, in '53 drove 14 hours straight in his C-4R. The next year, the ACO changed rules as to how long a driver could be in the car at one time. Change happens, man.

Except that is a safety issue. Whereas running 4 hours in one go isn’t!

Many moons ago we’ve had drivers that tried to do the whole 24 hours themselves. That also was rightly changed. But this ain’t like that.

[chernaudi]

Also, again, though the FIA have their name on the championship, explain to me why almost no one from the FIA have significant day to day involvement at the top of the championship as far as either promotion or running of it? Everyone I ever see interviewed or in prominent positions are from the ACO. IMO, the FIA tag along to give the WEC it's "world championship" moniker.


But back on subject, why is it a "safety issue" now? LMH/GTP cars are if anything easier to drive than say an Audi R8 or R10. They certainly don't corner as fast due to weight and such, and they also have niceties such as traction control (the R8 never had it, and the R10's tended to barely work--even the Porsche RS Spyder's TC system didn't prevent it from getting sideways or spinning out) and a roof over the drivers' heads.


IE, if Audi Sport managed at PLM back then without issue, there's no reason modern drivers in cars that are probably a bit nicer to drive can't, and knowing more about how to keep drivers in shape now than 15-20+ years ago should also help.


IMO, this sounds like typical ACO micromanaging, something that ironically they drifted away from in recent years, and was (the drifting away from micromanaging) for the better. I'd argue that their BOP format is enough micromanaging as it is (and they're far from the only guilty party in that area).



What's next if this domino falls? Allowing drivers to switch cars mid race (which the ACO allowed at LM in the late 80s and early 90s)? Or doing what Dyson did at Daytona in '97 when the took all the drivers from their car that they retired and stuffed them in the other car for the rest of the race alongside it's other drivers?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Also, again, though the FIA have their name on the championship, explain to me why almost no one from the FIA have significant day to day involvement at the top of the championship as far as either promotion or running of it? Everyone I ever see interviewed or in prominent positions are from the ACO. IMO, the FIA tag along to give the WEC it's "world championship" moniker.

Hot take alert!

Sanctioning body and organiser. That be how it works

But back on subject, why is it a "safety issue" now? LMH/GTP cars are if anything easier to drive than say an Audi R8 or R10.

Off topic, but are they?!

At least the R8 was intended to be quite a compliant car. These current cars have more to manage (ask Jenson!) and they have to go with the whole cold tyres thing.

Not that I am arguing that it was easy.

They certainly don't corner as fast due to weight and such, and they also have niceties such as traction control (the R8 never had it, and the R10's tended to barely work--even the Porsche RS Spyder's TC system didn't prevent it from getting sideways or spinning out) and a roof over the drivers' heads.

The current cars are heavier so easier?

IE, if Audi Sport managed at PLM back then without issue, there's no reason modern drivers in cars that are probably a bit nicer to drive can't, and knowing more about how to keep drivers in shape now than 15-20+ years ago should also help.

Not that I disagree with your overall point.

But the easier now thing isn’t a thing.

IMO, this sounds like typical ACO micromanaging, something that ironically they drifted away from in recent years, and was (the drifting away from micromanaging) for the better. I'd argue that their BOP format is enough micromanaging as it is (and they're far from the only guilty party in that area).

It’s a different thing to BoP. But well done for getting it into this.

What's next if this domino falls? Allowing drivers to switch cars mid race (which the ACO allowed at LM in the late 80s and early 90s)? Or doing what Dyson did at Daytona in '97 when the took all the drivers from their car that they retired and stuffed them in the other car for the rest of the race alongside it's other drivers?

Surely it is the opposite. I’d go back to allowing drivers to swap mid race if it was up for me. Although I can see why they don’t want that. That is allowing flexibility.

This is about removing flexibility and making everything the same.

What this reminds me of is how so many cars are red and white. Penske being the worst.