SPOT THE SPECTATOR

[The Realist]

Over the Summer Season we all need to work on getting spectators to events.
The last Supertourers round at Pukekohe attracted a better than average crowd. I believe this was due to the race card and the inclusion of the Truck Races to the event.
The recent Drift Shifters Event had a huge crowd even though there was an oversupply of motorsport on offer that weekend, with Thunder in the Park, Bikes at Hampton Downs for their National Championship round, and Speedway at Western Springs.
The recent Highlands GT Series and 101 meeting was down on spectators, even though they were trying to grow the event.
Below is a post I put elsewhere else some time ago which is still relevant.

For events to be viable, you need to realize that we are in the entertainment business.
Punters want to see exciting racing in fast and entertaining classes with large grid sizes, and meet both legendary and famous drivers.
The Australian Grand Prix in 2013 cost the Victorian taxpayer $60 million, but of note was that $2 million of this was attributed to Mark Webbers retirement.
The 2013 Australian Motorcycle Grand Prix at Philip Island cost the Victorian Govt $11.27 million, and a $5 million drop in ticket sales was attributed to Casey Stoners retirement.
When legends like Jim Richards are guests at events, ticket sales go up.
I see that a recent announcement that Mad Mike will be appearing at the Highlands 101 in November will be a commercial decision by them to attract an additional sector of the spectator market.
Rumour is that Pukekohe will feature truck racing at the November NZ SuperTourer meeting, thus attracting additional spectators.
It is good to see a bit of lateral thinking going on behind the scenes for the coming season.


It would be advantageous to gain other peoples assistance with this one.
We need bums on seats this summer

[socram]

Promoting an event today seems to require a) deep pockets b) deep pockets, c) deep pockets.

Glad you have started this thread, but I wonder who will read it or take notice of it.

As alluded to in the above and elsewhere, who are events aimed at is number 1.

The guys who love the Classic and Historics get good grids, but apart from a couple of meetings a year, crowds are generally low.

Drifters love the smoke and all action and hoopla but don't seem to care what the cars are outside of a small group - and half the time, they can't even see them anyway! They are bored with any class where the cars corner as if on rails - and they do have a good point.

Those who only want to see V8s don't seem to want to support Super Tourers, NZ V8s and V8 Utes but seem to enjoy Muscle Car V8s even though they are generally only a support grid.

I'm not sure who actually supports the trucks, but they do have a following.

TRS is our premier single seater class but as a one make series, I'm not sure how many dedicated followers there are.

FF should be booming at all levels - historic and modern, but again, is no real crowd puller.

SSang Yong Utes? Close racing and a fair sized grid, but hardly a draw card for spectators.

And so it goes on. Fragmented and diverse groups but meetings that only cater for similar groups (ie two classes of utes, or two or three similar looking saloon V8s) do not really attract too many of any one group, or so it seems.

So for me, it is still large grids and diverse cars. I don't mind an occasional truck race, occasional single seater race or an occasional Ute race, but my first love is still classics and historics, due to the diversity, decent sized grids, great camaraderie, and who can deny the attraction of F5000's or any of the larger capacity saloon grids?

Promotable? Who knows. Throw enough money at something and it may get crowds along, but as above, it has to be entertaining, not 90% of the time watching an empty track.

[Rocket Man]

This is a real problem for any sport these days as everyone is competing for Joe Blog's disposable income, which there isn't much of, I might tell you.
"The Warehouse" has the best marketing around, keep it cheap, but sell plenty.
This can work in Motor Racing events, I believe.
I know from personal experience that we were always looking for somewhere free, or at least very cheap, to take the kids to in the weekends, somewhere we could either take a picnic too or maybe treat them to some (cheap) fast food.
Now why not advertise, that entry will be a gold coin donation, ($1), I don't know many families that can afford these days to take All the Family to a motor race meeting at what they charge for entry. And see I said, All the Family, as we all need Family things, to do together, in our minimal together time, that Families have these days.
Charge the concession stalls a percentage of their takings to be there, but their prices have to be reasonable, (and food GOOD and if it's not they won't be invited back), and sell them on "The Warehouse" theory also.
Now that includes things for Mum, could be Makeup, Massage, maybe a Flee Market set up, eg Takapuna Markets, (Mums love these) now they would love an all day venue, (they pay for the privilege of setting up at venues all the time, you would not charge a percentage on takings though),
Add that a percentage of the gate will go to a Charity, (as hopefully you have covered your venue costs by the entry fees) make it a big one that has a big following and a Big name Celebrity that will come along donating their time and will promote the event for you also.
There will also have to be a variety of different vehicles and attractions (attractions no cost to Event organiser's) to entertain, as it is the kids that will drive the return to the next event if they have a Great day out and Mum and Dad got value for the few $'s they ended up spending.
Now this might not be a huge success the first time, but if it was a Fantastic day out, do you not think that the word would get around about how cheap and great the day was and that there is another one coming up in a couple of months. Word of mouth is the best advertising in the world.
The decline happened quickly so there is no quick fix, the public have to be coaxed back slowly and not ripped off again.
We have to get the next generation sold on Race cars just as I was when I was a kid. (many many years ago)
We have to think of the long term rewards, not the short term gains.

[Woolley]

Some very good points. Back in February I was taken to the Speedway at Tauranga. Not a style of event I was familiar with and I have to say my expectations were low.

I couldn't have been more wrong. A few well supported, well run classes. A meeting that ran very efficiently. Prices were sensible, food was varied and plentiful and the whole thing was run with the dual premise of entertaining the crowd and giving the drivers value for money.

And with that ethos, the crowds were pretty decent and covered a broad spectrum. Would I go back? Sure, why wouldn't you? Didn't cost a lot, entertained me hugely and happened at an extremely convenient time of the day/week.

[NZSTfan]

We often hear that about speedway, so maybe there is something to learn from how they do their thing.

For me, attracting crowds to the so-called top tier events is simple. V8SC manage to pull it off once a year when they come to NZ, and they just promote the hell out of it and the crowds pour in, even though the cost of just a basic GA pass is quite high. There is always good grub on hand, and that makes a difference IMO.

So I think whoever ends up as the 'top tin-top' category in NZ needs to take a leaf out of the V8SC handbook. I don't have a problem with the prices at say a ST event, but then again I have not had to pay for some time due to me splashing a few $$ around the categories. But I would still pay them nonetheless if I had to.

So, a directed marketing campaign and some real hype around the events need to be done. I was talking with a friend about this just this week, and we agreed that instead of just marketing the category and saying stuff like "20 SuperTourers go head to head at Puke" is a) lying, and b) does not create any hype. Why not focus on the 'stars' as athletes and try promoting the event based around that? Not too many people care about DNA and Holden vs Ford anymore, they tend to care more about their favourite drivers. I see some effort going in to this type of marketing with the ST's, but not enough. Chucking some driver profiles in a Herald pull-out does not do the trick. For ST to survive, I think the category needs to spend more time with each individual driver, make them a house-hold name through social media, and maybe give the teams the chance of making their own 'race diaries' on YouTube that really gives us an insight into who they are, what they like to do in their spare time etc etc. Tasman used to do a lot of these diaries, and in doing so, created some interest from Joe Public in their team and drivers. If NZV8TC ends up being #1 then they would have to do the same thing, although they may have a slight advantage as they don't run common engines. But as a whole, it is very hard to find any decent info on that series full stop.

Any category that gets TV time should really look at doing the 'Larko' type thing, where he goes into great detail about the bits and pieces on the cars, their differences, and of course spending time with the drivers. Mork needs to do things like this with ST. He did it at the very start, introducing everyone to the new car, and then all I can recall from there was a session on the shocks. Why not go into detail about the tyres, the brakes, aero, gearbox, chassis ra de ra. Give people an understanding of what they are actually watching. Crikey there are enough ST's out there now doing nothing, so why not have a few on display that people could even sit in and get a feel of what its like to be a racing driver at a high level.

To this day it astounds me that kiwis will flock in their hundreds of thousands to Puke once a year for the ITM. How does this happen? Each category needs to look at how they do things in comparison to a very well established and world renowned V8 touring car series. There is hype around that event, and why is that?

Either side of the fence in V8's in this country can offer a similar experience to V8SC more than once a year, but so far, bar the first ever round of ST and a couple of other rounds, the crowds have just dwindled. Yet, they can, if educated properly, attend more than one V8SC-esque event if they know more about it.

Having a FB page does not cut it anymore. We need cohesion around all the top categories, and from there develop a race program that punters are familiar with. We need to have every possible support category at each event. Look at a fairly typical SC event where you will have the SC, DVS, PCC, Utes, ARC, F3 (in some cases) and no doubt some other forms of on-track entertainment and support categories. The end result can be seen at any round of the SC's. Fans in their thousands all wearing their respective colours, and they wear these because they have been educated by the category about the cars and drivers. From there the punters pick and choose who they want to support, and whammo, they follow them like true 'athletes', similar to how people may follow their favourite NRL star, or rugby, or cricket player.

Heres another one for you....Darts I remember watching darts as a young kid in the UK and it was boring. Now look at it! thousands of cheering fans who follow their favourite darts players, and all they are doing is using one arm (very skilfully of course) to chuck arrows at a tiny board. There must be something there as well, so what is it? Well, in my view it is hype around individual 'stars' that creates a kind of cult following.

Look at what Mad Mike is doing here in NZ and overseas. Look at the drift-shifters, a very innovative way of doing the same thing. Clever man is Mike Whiddett, maybe we can learn from him?

Motorsport may seem to be falling over at these top levels, but at other levels it is thriving...the categories have to ask themselves "why is that?" and learn from others who are successful in whatever sport they choose to do.

I am watching with interest how the 15/16 season pans out for V8's. I for one hope there is something decent in the next season as I like V8 racing. Or maybe its time to go balls-out and ditch the V8 and get ahead of the game and try some different motors/configurations etc. Hell, both V8 categories claim they can put any engine and any body type on to their respective chassis. Maybe now is the time to be innovative and maybe step out of the comfort zone.

[NZSTfan]

http://m.speedcafe.com/2014/12/18/vi...ecast-cameras/
This is the kind of 'education' i am talking about. i found this very interesting and it answered all of my Questions around in car cameras....and that is just one of many facets that could be covered with say an ST. Doesn't have to cost the earth to produce and keeps punters in the know.
Showing a hotlap of a tv presenter with Murph does nothing in my view.

[socram]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

"The Warehouse" has the best marketing around, keep it cheap, but sell plenty.
This can work in Motor Racing events, I believe.
I know from personal experience that we were always looking for somewhere free, or at least very cheap, to take the kids to in the weekends, somewhere we could either take a picnic too or maybe treat them to some (cheap) fast food.

Top post and agree with everything you wrote. The only point I would make is that there are several clubby meetings (including last Sunday at HD) where there is no charge for spectators. I too won't pay for over priced food or drink - anywhere, that includes theatres, movies or even Cirque du Soleil, not just at a race track.

Agree totally about the family too. Used to do it when we were kids - family day out, but as long as there is action on the track, most are happy.

I believe HD tried to get a Sunday Market going but it wasn't well supported. If that is a stand-alone in the car park, entry to that is free anyway. Market Traders also need crowds, so there is a potential chicken/egg situation. Donington in the UK managed it very successfully, but the catchment area included Nottingham, Leicester and Derby, so lots of fairly local people.

[bluespur]

good discussions and pity it has stalled probably because there really is no clear answer.

one point I would make about V8SC is that they come here once a year and suggest that is their strength - perhaps that is what we should be looking for our major meetings - once a year opportunity to see those particular cars

sure is not going to help in the Auckland area where I see that some of the volunteers have the choice of 34+ weekends per year - no wonder it is getting hard to recruit and retain in the area.

I believe that we need to get back to the situation about 5years ago where there was a Tier 1 circuit that attended once a year to the circuits we had - yes there are more circuits than before but it could be made to work. However that really requires the classes who want to run at that level to commit to a series.

it would also give the 'special' promotions - Skope, Festival of Speed, MG Classic etc - a firm place in the calander which would complement rather than compete with whatever Tier 1 circus is in place.

then you would have the lesser (sic), for want of a better word, to arrange their series around those dates, with perhaps some movement to Tier 1 as appropriate. I would not envisage these meetings relying on spectator gate to finance their meetings. part of the problem there are too many series in this area and too many meetings are required to meet their requirements - needs to be some rationalisation all round - not just at the top level.

I do get a little annoyed when I read about how well the club/series/classic meetings are being supported and that the championship level is not - perhaps the tail is wagging the dog and really is part of the problem.

[Icarus_nz]

There are a good many factors at play.

Firstly, I don't see that dilution helps at all.

Too many events, too many classes leads to compromised quality
Great for competitors and to a lesser degree, organizing clubs, but not so good for spectators.
A classic mistake seems to be at the lower levels to get (over) excited about participation and immediately think that translates into spectator interest.

I like skidding around therefore you should LOVE to pay money to watch me

This attitude blurs useful thinking about what the viewer wants.
Even as you move up the food chain, the same thinking prevails: I like this so you should pay money to watch it.

********

Has anyone ever surveyed public attitudes towards motorsport viewing?
Why do they come?
Is it to see cars? Is it to witness racing? Is it to meet talented individuals? Is it something to do with family or friends?

Say a day ticket is $30. Does the experience offer better value than say two movie tickets? Or a green fee?

New Zealand, in global terms (or even Australasian terms), has a tiny population. Of that population only a certain percentage are aware of motorsport, less again remotely interested and less again prepared to come and watch.

New Zealand has a lot of space for its little population and lots of stuff you can do for yourself. I don't New Zealand as a nation of spectators in the way that the Brits are, for instance.

A friend pointed out to me, why go and watch things with a motor (if that's what interests you) when you could just go and do something yourself?
Circuit racing, Rally, Drift, Speedway (in all its disciplines) Offroad vehicles, Circuit motorcycle, Enduro, Motorcross, Boat Racing, Jet Skiing - the list goes on. There are competitions for all of these. Furthermore in any weekend there are plenty of people enjoying non-competitive variants of these sports

An earlier poster suggested cost was the problem and we should follow the approach of the Ware-Whare.
Increase sales at less margin for greater net return.
In taking this approach it is necessary to know the size of the market. It seems, in NZ, with the exception of major events that the market size is static and/or falling

Cost is a red herring. It stems from the same erronous thinking - I think this is expensive therefore everybody else thinks like me.

V8SC is a model we often point to. Love them or hate them, once a year they come to town and put on a high quality show. Once a year.

Whereas every few weeks we seem to have a choice of yet another event, the equivilent of watching a game of lawn tennis. NZ Open it ain't.

Aside from the many other factors tangled up in modern living, is it any wonder people are gun shy of motorsport when for years things have been over-hyped and the actual product dismal.

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

There are a good many factors at play.

Firstly, I don't see that dilution helps at all.

Too many events, too many classes leads to compromised quality
Great for competitors and to a lesser degree, organizing clubs, but not so good for spectators.
A classic mistake seems to be at the lower levels to get (over) excited about participation and immediately think that translates into spectator interest.

I like skidding around therefore you should LOVE to pay money to watch me

This attitude blurs useful thinking about what the viewer wants.
Even as you move up the food chain, the same thinking prevails: I like this so you should pay money to watch it.

********

Has anyone ever surveyed public attitudes towards motorsport viewing?
Why do they come?
Is it to see cars? Is it to witness racing? Is it to meet talented individuals? Is it something to do with family or friends?

Say a day ticket is $30. Does the experience offer better value than say two movie tickets? Or a green fee?

New Zealand, in global terms (or even Australasian terms), has a tiny population. Of that population only a certain percentage are aware of motorsport, less again remotely interested and less again prepared to come and watch.

New Zealand has a lot of space for its little population and lots of stuff you can do for yourself. I don't New Zealand as a nation of spectators in the way that the Brits are, for instance.

A friend pointed out to me, why go and watch things with a motor (if that's what interests you) when you could just go and do something yourself?
Circuit racing, Rally, Drift, Speedway (in all its disciplines) Offroad vehicles, Circuit motorcycle, Enduro, Motorcross, Boat Racing, Jet Skiing - the list goes on. There are competitions for all of these. Furthermore in any weekend there are plenty of people enjoying non-competitive variants of these sports

An earlier poster suggested cost was the problem and we should follow the approach of the Ware-Whare.
Increase sales at less margin for greater net return.
In taking this approach it is necessary to know the size of the market. It seems, in NZ, with the exception of major events that the market size is static and/or falling

Cost is a red herring. It stems from the same erronous thinking - I think this is expensive therefore everybody else thinks like me.

V8SC is a model we often point to. Love them or hate them, once a year they come to town and put on a high quality show. Once a year.

Whereas every few weeks we seem to have a choice of yet another event, the equivilent of watching a game of lawn tennis. NZ Open it ain't.

Aside from the many other factors tangled up in modern living, is it any wonder people are gun shy of motorsport when for years things have been over-hyped and the actual product dismal.

What about a locked gate policy?
There is so much freebee club level racing for all but the avid enthusiast, so keep the gates locked for all but major promoted events.

This would generate interest, boost crowds and make these events more promotable and cost effective.

It does happen overseas.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

What about a locked gate policy?
There is so much freebee club level racing for all but the avid enthusiast, so keep the gates locked for all but major promoted events.

This would generate interest, boost crowds and make these events more promotable and cost effective.

It does happen overseas.

I don't see a problem with that. The cost of the meeting is covered by entries so why not?
If people are super super keen to get in and watch, well everybody knows somebody and they can attach themselves to a team or to the organization.

I think however that it stem back to the mode of thinking - This is awesome, I am awesome - surely people WANT to see my awesome.
Competitors LOVE to be in front of a big crowd. Perhaps it validates them in some way

[Woolley]

Or the opposite. If no-one's coming anyway, make it free and try to sell them programmes, food and merchandise, plus you can sell to sponsors on the grounds that someone will actually see their message?

[socram]

Some good posts. I am under no illusion whatever that 200 plus classics does not in itself mean that people will pay to watch. From my perspective, at the end of the race, I'll be waving a thank you at the flaggies. Whether there are spectators or not, it will not make a blind bit of difference to my enjoyment.

An open (free) gate policy is far preferable to a locked gate policy. Why put off the casual caller? They may well be the ones that pay next time.

However, to pay to go to a so called tier 1 meeting and only have 67 cars competing is a massive turn off. I don't see any problem with race tracks running every weekend of the year to cater for the competitors and being self funding.

It is after all, an amateur sport. The fact that we play on the same track as the professionals is no different from golf or tennis. Smaller meetings are NOT promoted so spectators are irrelevant.

Our big problem is that the money thrown at promotion has largely been wasted, as spectators soon learned that what was on offer was not deserving of the hype.

Super Tourers changed their stance very quickly and started to have meetings that had considerably more appeal than initially. Once a sport is damaged however, it takes a long time to get people back in through the gates and in many cases, it will never happen. Like a restaurant having an off night with the staff or serving up a cockroach in the curry or a snail in the salad, or a frozen pizza containing bits of mouse, damage is widespread and sometimes, it is irreparable.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by socram

Some good posts. I am under no illusion whatever that 200 plus classics does not in itself mean that people will pay to watch. From my perspective, at the end of the race, I'll be waving a thank you at the flaggies. Whether there are spectators or not, it will not make a blind bit of difference to my enjoyment. there you go doing it again. There are plenty of folks out there who will move heaven and earth to be at a 'big' meeting in front of a crowd


An open (free) gate policy is far preferable to a locked gate policy. Why put off the casual caller? They may well be the ones that pay next time.
And that has been the dominant thinking up to now. Thanks to Bill for questioning it. Anyone else have a view?

However, to pay to go to a so called tier 1 meeting and only have 67 cars competing is a massive turn off.

Now you're confusing quantity and quality. A grid of 20+ always looks good. 30 or 40 is always impressive at least for the first half lap and I guess it means there is always something to chuckle at through the field. But numbers don't guarantee ability. Personally, I'd rather watch 8 - 10 cars being driven exceptionally well (key word personally)

I don't see any problem with race tracks running every weekend of the year to cater for the competitors and being self funding.
It is after all, an amateur sport. The fact that we play on the same track as the professionals is no different from golf or tennis. Smaller meetings are NOT promoted so spectators are irrelevant. Agree

Our big problem is that the money thrown at promotion has largely been wasted, as spectators soon learned that what was on offer was not deserving of the hype. This has been the case for a good many years

Super Tourers changed their stance very quickly and started to have meetings that had considerably more appeal than initially. This post is generic, its about the sport in general rather than any one class. The SuperTourer guys should be congratulated for putting their money where their mouth is and trying a range of things. AND on a properly commercial basis without membership subsidy

Once a sport is damaged however, it takes a long time to get people back in through the gates and in many cases, it will never happen. Like a restaurant having an off night with the staff or serving up a cockroach in the curry or a snail in the salad, or a frozen pizza containing bits of mouse, damage is widespread and sometimes, it is irreparable.

Again, I think you're guilty of over-generalising. I agree that it takes time to rebuild trust - no different to any other undertaking. The key thought is that it is crucial to deliver a quality product.

[socram]

That is where we differ Icarus. I wouldn't cross the road to watch a day of grids of 8 - 10 cars. At speedway, where you can see the whole track, maybe yes.

Highland Park, where they are out of sight for most of the lap, why bother going?

When it comes to ability or driving well, I'm not too sure that Joe average can really spot the drivers who are top of the tree given that most modern cars demand a smooth driving style rather than 'tail out'.

Watching 'Skidmark' Parsons on the old Taupo club circuit on a wet track in the TR7 V8, had everyone out of the clubhouse watching the superb car control. (No wonder that Possum Bourne rated him so highly.)

I think it was 20,000 spectators at Western Springs Boxing Day or thereabouts. Combine that with the thousands out for the drifters, tells me that many spectators want to see 'attitude' rather than any purist notion of circuit racing and they do not want the cars out of sight for 80% of the lap either.

Thinking back to the late 1950's, Mallory Park was the same length as Taupo - 1.35 miles. As the fields were limited to 14 cars only, at least you saw them every few seconds. However, 8 cars on a 2.8+km track, mostly out of sight?

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

There are a good many factors at play.

Firstly, I don't see that dilution helps at all.

Too many events, too many classes leads to compromised quality
Great for competitors and to a lesser degree, organizing clubs, but not so good for spectators.
A classic mistake seems to be at the lower levels to get (over) excited about participation and immediately think that translates into spectator interest.

I like skidding around therefore you should LOVE to pay money to watch me

This attitude blurs useful thinking about what the viewer wants.
Even as you move up the food chain, the same thinking prevails: I like this so you should pay money to watch it.

********

Has anyone ever surveyed public attitudes towards motorsport viewing?
Why do they come?
Is it to see cars? Is it to witness racing? Is it to meet talented individuals? Is it something to do with family or friends?

Say a day ticket is $30. Does the experience offer better value than say two movie tickets? Or a green fee?

New Zealand, in global terms (or even Australasian terms), has a tiny population. Of that population only a certain percentage are aware of motorsport, less again remotely interested and less again prepared to come and watch.

New Zealand has a lot of space for its little population and lots of stuff you can do for yourself. I don't New Zealand as a nation of spectators in the way that the Brits are, for instance.

A friend pointed out to me, why go and watch things with a motor (if that's what interests you) when you could just go and do something yourself?
Circuit racing, Rally, Drift, Speedway (in all its disciplines) Offroad vehicles, Circuit motorcycle, Enduro, Motorcross, Boat Racing, Jet Skiing - the list goes on. There are competitions for all of these. Furthermore in any weekend there are plenty of people enjoying non-competitive variants of these sports

An earlier poster suggested cost was the problem and we should follow the approach of the Ware-Whare.
Increase sales at less margin for greater net return.
In taking this approach it is necessary to know the size of the market. It seems, in NZ, with the exception of major events that the market size is static and/or falling

Cost is a red herring. It stems from the same erronous thinking - I think this is expensive therefore everybody else thinks like me.

V8SC is a model we often point to. Love them or hate them, once a year they come to town and put on a high quality show. Once a year.

Whereas every few weeks we seem to have a choice of yet another event, the equivilent of watching a game of lawn tennis. NZ Open it ain't.

Aside from the many other factors tangled up in modern living, is it any wonder people are gun shy of motorsport when for years things have been over-hyped and the actual product dismal.

All the best for the new year Ray.

At the risk of being accused of doubling as Icarus, I have to agree with his post, and disagree with your's.

I think your swallowing a lot of PR hype on the crowd numbers at Western Spring's for a start, and I don't think it helps to talk about 8 cars on Hampton Downs 2.8Km circuit which by the way is not quite 2.7 Km.

Every body agrees that bigger fields make a better spectator experience, but sadly this does translate into better racing. The reality is bigger field's are full of cars and drivers that will never win a scratch race in their life because most of these drivers are just enjoying being participants. You only have to look at our Ssangyong Ute Series, were we will again have 30 competitors on the grid at Hampton Downs at the end of this month.

50% of our SRS competitors know that they are never going to win a race on ability, but they all just love racing each other right down to the last two across the finish line. They can do this because SRS racing is, next to to 2K cup, really inexpensive, were as most other forms of Tin-Top racing [as in "rubbing" defines real racing] is expensive and the faster you go the more expensive it gets. Which is the issue with controlled categories, like TRS, TRS, NZTL, etc.

You believe in formula Libra which encourages all manner of entrants because you can pretty much "run what you brung" and there are very few rules if any, and as a result if you don't run to many events you get large competitor turn out, but unfortunately no crowds to watch them.

I spent some time talking to Eric Mallard, the week after Thunder in the Park, and Eric had just spent a couple of day's accounting the whole event [which belong's to the NZIGP] and asked him how the paying spectators were for that well known once a year event. It should be sufficient to say only that Eric "rolled his eyes" to the ceiling and said Dreadful!

Need I say more!

[socram]

Cheers Mark. As with Icarus (who I know is not you!) we see things differently as to what spectators actually want and secondly, will pay for. I don't think any of us are in fact wrong, we just don't agree on the fix.

I think Eric and the TITP meeting were victims of the general demise of support for decent racing. As I said earlier, the damage caused by the Tier 1 small grids has affected us all and it will take time to rebuild. You may or may not agree but that is my personal belief.

Whilst I agree that 30 utes is a much better spectacle than 8 or 10 of anything, I hope that at the Ganley Festival (weekend 2) where we have a full (genuinely full) grid of 46 cars plus 13 reserves, that we can show that racing can be worth watching, but we'll wait for spectator feedback for a definitive answer, as I for one am too close to it to make a judgement.

Yes, amateurs racing (though we do have one or two drivers with international experience including a Group C winner) and yes, some cars may not be on their limits, and yes, some are cheap and yes, some are expensive, but I'd suggest that some of these amateur drivers are rather more interesting to watch than bare tarseal. In fact, they are all more interesting than tarseal. Anyone who disagrees with that statement can sit at the side of SH1. They don't even need to go to a race track.

We all want what is good for the sport overall, but I just wish that more people would contribute their thoughts rather than our usual half dozen!

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by socram

That is where we differ Icarus. I wouldn't cross the road to watch a day of grids of 8 - 10 cars. At speedway, where you can see the whole track, maybe yes.

Highland Park, where they are out of sight for most of the lap, why bother going? Aside from the wine and scenery why bother full stop? Unless you're racing I suppose

When it comes to ability or driving well, I'm not too sure that Joe average can really spot the drivers who are top of the tree given that most modern cars demand a smooth driving style rather than 'tail out'.

I've picked up on this in your posts before and this is an attitude that rather amazes me. Watching a car bing driven right on the limit is electrifying. Seeing it 'up on its toes', dancing and moving with a driver who is in front of the car and wringing every last piece of speed out of it is brilliant. Isn't it this that made Jimmy Clarke sublime to watch? And isn't it this that Fangio was hailed for?
I once attended a vintage race meeting at Silverstone and as entranced by the sight of a wooden spoked wheeled beast being manhandled through Luffield, the drivr sawing at the wheel and with grim determination. Not fast and rather like a cow ice-skating but a happy memory all the same.
Yes, modern cars reward a clean driving style but any car that looks to be on rails isn't going fast enough.
Harking but to the Clarke era - that wasn't tail out wasted energy either. It was balance. Trading sideways motion against forward motion to extract the most from the package. Just like now.
Go to You Tube and watch the last 10 laps of the 2014 Bathurst GT race.
SVG's charge where every corner was on the cusp of disaster. Scintillating.



Watching 'Skidmark' Parsons on the old Taupo club circuit on a wet track in the TR7 V8, had everyone out of the clubhouse watching the superb car control. (No wonder that Possum Bourne rated him so highly.) As what? A potential rally driver?

I think it was 20,000 spectators at Western Springs Boxing Day or thereabouts. Combine that with the thousands out for the drifters, tells me that many spectators want to see 'attitude' rather than any purist notion of circuit racing and they do not want the cars out of sight for 80% of the lap either. What if there are other factors at play? A tighter time frame? Less distance to travel? etc etc

Why do people spectate at all? My thoughts would be that it is to see skill beyond what the spectator themselves feel capable of ever achieving.
Plenty of people play golf. Why bother paying to see Lydia Coe? Not attitude and not her clubs. It is to witness something special. A memory.

I love it when little kids get to sit in a race car. Their eyes light up and there they are - Roger Racecar - Winner!

Thinking back to the late 1950's, Mallory Park was the same length as Taupo - 1.35 miles. As the fields were limited to 14 cars only, at least you saw them every few seconds. However, 8 cars on a 2.8+km track, mostly out of sight?

Addressing the core question of attracting spectators to the sport, let step back from 'Motorsport' and ask the question as to why people spectate on ANY sport (or even activity). It is a universal human behaviour and predates the automobile.

Most studies suggest that peoples motivation for spectating is largely driven by a sense of Group Membership. It helps create a social identity for the individual by being able to identify with a group (Ford or Holden mate?)
This behaviour is driven by the fundamental need to belong which is rooted in every person to a lesser or greater degree. People are social creatures - those who aren't are deemed different. Antisocial in fact.

Being a 'fan' gives a an instant 'tribe' to celebrate and commiserate with.

Are the thousands of folks going to watch drifting doing it because they are passionate about the sport. Or is it because their mates are going?

Why do people go to Rugby Sevens? Who's playing? Who cares?

The key to attracting spectators is people.

If every competitor were to get 10 people to come that would be a start.
Of course the competitors want their mates there for free.
If they don't value the activity, why should a spectator?

Perhaps its because they feel the entry fees are too high.
Fine - put a price on the ticket and every ticket a competitor sells is credited 50% against their entry fees.

Whatever. Why I see is when people experience the sport for the first time their perceptions of what motorsport is are shattered. They recognise the passion, the drama, the complexity. Its not the 'petrolhead' boofhead thing the media portrays.
Soon they realise that top drivers are in fact elite athletes.
I hear them say - 'I never knew'
I always make a point of taking then to watch a session or a race and showing then what to look at. Soon you can see them translating what they are seeing trackside to what they would need to do if they were behind the wheel.

Advertising alone isn't going bring about a resurgence in spectator numbers. Only people will convince people

[socram]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Whatever. Why I see is when people experience the sport for the first time their perceptions of what motorsport is are shattered. They recognise the passion, the drama, the complexity. Its not the 'petrolhead' boofhead thing the media portrays.
Soon they realise that top drivers are in fact elite athletes.
I hear them say - 'I never knew'.

Totally agree.

Reading back and knowing that Icarus and Mark have a different view from myself, I realise now that they are both driver focused whereas I am car focused.

Newcomers to watching are therefore less likely to know the drivers, but may be able to enjoy the cars. Only later and with knowledge can they recognise the talent.

When you compare what Valerie Adams for example, achieves in terms of publicity and support, to say Scott Dixon, then too many critics of our sport put Scott Dixon's success down to his team or that he is 'just sitting down and steering'.

Take any newcomer for a track ride, even at 7/10th's, and they have a better appreciation of the sport - even without the competitive element. Most have never driven at much over 100kph anyway and they certainly haven't cornered on the limit or anywhere near it.

Maybe as part of the driver licencing requirement, someone should take them for a few fast laps in a car similar to their own!

When Scott Dixon has to concentrate for hours and risks losing his life each time out, has to make split second judgments, has to fight the G forces, has to understand the tactics, has to place the car within millimetres time after time, has to be 100% aware of who is around him, you begin to understand, but you are never going to convince those who look upon a car only as a means to get from A - B.

They will never have the passion of racers or dedicated followers so yes, it will take people to drag people in.

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by socram

Maybe as part of the driver licencing requirement, someone should take them for a few fast laps in a car similar to their own!

This is something I feel is a no-brainer, and yes I know its off topic. Think back to whenever you learnt to drive in whatever the old man had at the time (mine was a bright yellow Ford Sierra Wagon), and then you progressed and bought your first car. In my case this was a 1984 Subaru Leone with a whopping 63bhp!. I learnt the art of driving by driving on gravel roads in old mk1 and 2 Escorts, and KE model Corollas (including an old KE20 with, wait for it, a worked 5k motor! (quite a big deal back then). These cars we underpowered, underbraked, had steering that was not the best, but they taught you car control without going overboard.

Now kids aged 17 or whatever the legal age is can pass a test, and then buy a 300bhp beast that will take some serious skill to manage properly. These kids don't have a clue about how to deal with under/over/bump/torque steer etc, and that is one of the reasons why so many youngsters these days get harmed on our roads. It is the same with motorbikes. I believe that for a person to be considered 'competent' in a car then they have to complete skid-car training, and do what socram suggests and take a car on a track (controlled environment) and push it as hard as they can to prove to the instructor they have the ability to control the thing......then give them a license.

I believe in Finland you have to demonstrate that you can driver on snow before they grant you a license. And Finland, per capita, produces some of, if not the best, drivers in the world.

Sorry to go off topic, but socrams comments struck a nerve with me.

[20b]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Now kids aged 17 or whatever the legal age is can pass a test, and then buy a 300bhp beast that will take some serious skill to manage properly. These kids don't have a clue about how to deal with under/over/bump/torque steer etc, and that is one of the reasons why so many youngsters these days get harmed on our roads. It is the same with motorbikes. I believe that for a person to be considered 'competent' in a car then they have to complete skid-car training, and do what socram suggests and take a car on a track (controlled environment) and push it as hard as they can to prove to the instructor they have the ability to control the thing......then give them a license.

Most 17 y/o's can't afford a 300hp car, well at least the kids who I know that are 17 and 18 can't. I would argue that most kids driving around in cars that have some grunt are a) provided with the money or car by their parents, or b) have left school in year 12/13 and are working in a trade so can afford to buy quick cars. That's from the observations I've made in the last couple of years. Just about all of my mates who have cars have bought them themselves and aren't all that spectacularly powerful. If anything most kids are more concerned about a car that's cheap-as-chips to run. All but one of my friends have low powered cars, and the one friend who has a reasonably powerful 'hot-hatch' had it paid completely by his parents.....he crashed it :P

As a youngster myself I do agree that there should be some sort of mandatory driver training. Ideally you'd have guys coming into school to teach kids but having talked to teachers and the principal at my previous school there just aren't enough days in the schooling year to provide such services. Of course this all costs money that the government/ministry aren't willing to fork up.

[NZSTfan]

Yes point taken 20b, however there is always good 'ol Finance from the sleazy car salesman that will help you get into your new turbocharged whiz-bang killing machine, even if you are young, dumb, and full of...... (I have even seen signs asking for customers who have a bad debt record, are on benefits, and even some who will finance you if you have a driving offence!)

I must say your group of friends sound like a decent and sensible bunch. I have to remember that I live in the paradise that is West Auckland and the amount of kids who don't even shave yet but have a powerful(ish) WRX, Evo, or Silvia or other Nissan is incredible.

The sound of exploding P-labs in West Akl is often muted by the sound of aftermarket blow-off valves, poorly fitted exhausts, and kids doin' skids in the nearest car park or subdivision. Then the sound of their respective missus arguing with them because they can't afford nappies because of the 95% interest they are paying thanks to 'Instant Finance'

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by socram

I realise now that they are both driver focused whereas I am car focused.

Yes. And doesn't it make a difference when discussing what can be done to improve the sport?
Don't get me wrong, put a field of of the best drivers in dull cars and I wouldn't bother with that either. Any time that has happened in the past the drivers themselves don't take it seriously and it turns into a crash fest.
Machinery that take a lot to master, driven well is a good combination. Which I guess is why big powerful cars are the most exciting of all.

I enjoy seeing top class machinery, I love seeing it thrashed within an inch of its life.

I can see that many people really enjoy meetings such as Scope etc. I have a real appreciation of genuine machinery kept period but after a couple of hours in the pits its time to go and do something interesting. Beautiful cars driven badly as I say.
One of the reason I don't really enjoy F5000 is that it spiralled out of control and was full of jokers desperate to win a 40 year old championship as if it proved something.

Newcomers to watching are therefore less likely to know the drivers, but may be able to enjoy the cars. Only later and with knowledge can they recognise the talent.

Definately. However Kiwi's as a rule tend to shy away from publicity or self promotion and so actively building a fan base isn't something too many of our drivers do.
The pit lane walks, grid walks etc often seem like a pain in the proverbial for teams but are a really necessary part of making spectators seem more 'special' than those sitting on the couch somewhere.

As I write it, I think it is worth noting that is an important 'point difference'

When you compare what Valerie Adams for example, achieves in terms of publicity and support, to say Scott Dixon, then too many critics of our sport put Scott Dixon's success down to his team or that he is 'just sitting down and steering'.

Take any newcomer for a track ride, even at 7/10th's, and they have a better appreciation of the sport - even without the competitive element. Most have never driven at much over 100kph anyway and they certainly haven't cornered on the limit or anywhere near it.

When Scott Dixon has to concentrate for hours and risks losing his life each time out, has to make split second judgments, has to fight the G forces, has to understand the tactics, has to place the car within millimetres time after time, has to be 100% aware of who is around him, you begin to understand, but you are never going to convince those who look upon a car only as a means to get from A - B.

I read an interesting (non motorsport opinion) recently that made the point that journalists and media people tend to be those who did well in English at school. Those who know something about sciences and other 'hard' (as opposed to 'soft') subjects tend to get on with making money, not talking about it.

Part then of generating 'spin' and positive attitudes towards our sport requires more media types having a real experience.

[raymond]

[QUOTE=Icarus_nz;3490823]




I read an interesting (non motorsport opinion) recently that made the point that journalists and media people tend to be those who did well in English at school. Those who know something about sciences and other 'hard' (as opposed to 'soft') subjects tend to get on with making money, not talking about it.

(QUOTE]


...if that were true...where's my loot??

Mind you I also did well at English, History and Geography...or as my dad said "Poofta subjects"

[socram]

Lucky you Crunch! I failed everything - except art - though I have made money from motorsport commissions... Ironically, also from writing (failed English) and even teaching basic Maths (failed Maths) at Tech college and Uni, albeit as part of a wider course!

I do remember well a UK local radio sports journalist who rubbished motorsport. Local super saloon ace Mick Hill offered to take him for a run at Donington. His attitude changed overnight. When I first arrived in NZ, lo and behold, the same radio bod was on local radio with Loosehead Len! (Phil Gifford).

Although not a motorsport fan as such, Murray Deaker always sang the praises of the motorsport fraternity. He claimed they were far more articulate than almost any other sport, both the drivers and those who rang in to his talk-back programme.

There was also a TV multisports competition in the UK and I think that across all the various disciplines represented, Jody Scheckter won hands down.

However, you will never convince the die-hard 'motorsport is boring' critics to see anything of interest, no matter how hard you try.