Driving On the Track, Not Off It

[TrapezeArtist]

I see in Autosport this week that the MSA has despaired of the FIA ever coming up with a workable rule about racing only on the track and written their own. Having been banging on about this for years I'm pleased to see that someone has grasped the nettle at last. So long as huge flat kerbs and even bigger tarmac run-off areas exist, it won't be easy to formulate and enforce a rule that is workable, but I do hope this succeeds. If it does, I would like to think the FIA will adopt it for all international racing too.

Sorry I can't provide a link. I couldn't find it in the Autosport website but it's in the magazine.

[JohnMiller]

What exactly is "unworkable" about at least one wheel always having to be on the track?

[Greem]

I refer the honorable members to the recent discussion over in the Marshals Forum.

We're the ones who get to do the seeing eye bit. To say there's a mix of opinions would be an understatement! Add in drivers who disagree and it got a bit noisy...

[Greem]

For completeness, here's the thread I mentioned.

As you'll no doubt see, the word "consistency" and variations of it come up a lot..

[TrapezeArtist]

It goes on a bit, doesn't it? I'll admit I didn't read all the way to the end but I got a good flavour of the first couple of pages. I got the impression the marshals acknowledge the need for the rule, but are concerned with how they are going to report/enforce the rule in precisely the way it has been written. I can sympathise with that.

I also noted a few people saying "if you're not going to be allowed to use the kerbs, why have them?" Well, I go along with that too. In general we started without kerbs, then put in kerbs, then made bigger kerbs, then added a second kerb beyond the first kerb, then added grasscrete or plastic grass, and finally a huge tarmac run-off. Perhaps it is time to get rid of all kerbs and pseudo-kerbs altogether. We could easily live with nothing on the exit of corners. On apexes we would need something sturdy but not too damaging to stop corner-cutting.

In essence, it is a lot better to have drivers choosing to stay within the confines of the track than obliging marshals to report on all the transgressors. In an ideal world we would have the edges of the track so designed that running off track would cause a time loss but no damage. If anyone can design that, we have the solution!

[wolfhound]

Wet astroturf followed by concrete wall?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Wet astroturf followed by concrete wall?

Should work every time!

Or

How about a properly prepared sand traps.

[TrapezeArtist]

Properly prepared sand traps is an appealing idea. Unfortunately I think there are too many variables. Wet or dry sand will behave differently. A car will be affected very differently depending on whether it goes in forwards or sideways. And heavy cars in support races will require something different to F1 cars.

I have a hankering to see free-standing tyres walls tried. I envisage a long tyrewall about 3 tyres high very close to the track. That would certainly dissuade drivers from risking running into them, although the damage they would inflict would be relatively light. Also, if a car really went off and hit one it would progressively slow the car as it was dragged across the run-off area. Perhaps more tyres walls could be set up a bit further back to provide greater decel for cars that go off at high speed.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I have a hankering to see free-standing tyres walls tried. I envisage a long tyrewall about 3 tyres high very close to the track. That would certainly dissuade drivers from risking running into them, although the damage they would inflict would be relatively light. Also, if a car really went off and hit one it would progressively slow the car as it was dragged across the run-off area. Perhaps more tyres walls could be set up a bit further back to provide greater decel for cars that go off at high speed.

Tyre walls work very well when hit head on or at a slight angle.

However have you ever seen the mess they create when a car touches them as it drives alongside(or doesn't). You are normally left with a smouldering wreck in the middle of the track.
You might remember Monza back in the mid nineties where tyres were bolted down on the inside of the chicanes!

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

However have you ever seen the mess they create when a car touches them as it drives alongside(or doesn't). You are normally left with a smouldering wreck in the middle of the track.
You might remember Monza back in the mid nineties where tyres were bolted down on the inside of the chicanes!

Tyre walls backed by armco or an earth bank might throw cars back on to the track, but free-standing tyre walls wouldn't. The tyre wall would move back with the car, aborbing the car's momentum as it did so.

The problem at Monza was that the tyres weren't bolted down. If the tyre bundles had been secured by a radial cable back to a strong point a few metres from the track they could have been knocked out of the way but they couldn't have got onto the track.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Tyre walls backed by armco or an earth bank might throw cars back on to the track, but free-standing tyre walls wouldn't. The tyre wall would move back with the car, aborbing the car's momentum as it did so.

The problem at Monza was that the tyres weren't bolted down. If the tyre bundles had been secured by a radial cable back to a strong point a few metres from the track they could have been knocked out of the way but they couldn't have got onto the track.

Tyre walls are shockingly bad with open wheeler cars. The cars penetrate the tyre wall and become snagged causing the car to break up. The wreck is then ejected back onto the track as Wolfhound said.
If the tyre wall is not properly backed the car pushes the wall back and the stored energy usually flicks the car into the air.

They may work to a certain extent with touring cars, but even then they eject the debris back onto the track. With awful results.

[Greem]

Remember that circuits have other things racing on them (not at the same time, obviously)... things with two wheels, ridden by a largely unprotected carbon-based lifeform, mostly made of squishy bits in a leather & kevlar suit.

They *really* don't like obstructions in the run-off areas, which is in part why we have massive seas of tarmac and/or gravel nowadays. Just look at what happened at Silverstone at the weekend - imagine that with a permanent structure.

We are where we are. We can't go back to the days of wood & wire catch fencing decapitating people, so let's try to be sensible.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Greem

Remember that circuits have other things racing on them (not at the same time, obviously)... things with two wheels, ridden by a largely unprotected carbon-based lifeform, mostly made of squishy bits in a leather & kevlar suit.

They *really* don't like obstructions in the run-off areas, which is in part why we have massive seas of tarmac and/or gravel nowadays. Just look at what happened at Silverstone at the weekend - imagine that with a permanent structure.

We are where we are. We can't go back to the days of wood & wire catch fencing decapitating people, so let's try to be sensible.

Hence my love of giant cat boxes.

Air fences seam to work pretty well for the exposed carbon based life forms too.

The new oval impact walls on the American ovals seem to work way better than tyre walls! Give quite nicely but don't allow penetration.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by wnut

Hence my love of giant cat boxes.

Air fences seam to work pretty well for the exposed carbon based life forms too.

The new oval impact walls on the American ovals seem to work way better than tyre walls! Give quite nicely but don't allow penetration.

Air fence (also known as Recticel barriers) is used at a number of UK circuits up against otherwise immovable barriers or tyre walls - I know this in detail because I spent a lot of the weekend climbing over one, and back again

They're pretty good but for cars they can be a bit inconvenient, as they have a habit of burrowing underneath.

The oval SAFER barrier is, as far as I know, only really applicable to long fixed structures like the oval walls/fences as the impact is spread across a large deformable area - each bit poking out from the wall is energy absorbing, as is the outer piece. I don't know for certain but I'd imagine that there's a minimum safe length.

Getting back to the "keeping it on the track" (for some definition of "track") discussion, at yesterday's Superstars meeting at Donington I only had to report about 10 cars over the line in my section over the entire weekend, and almost all of those had overcooked it coming in to the corner. Compare that to some other meetings I've done where you're getting 20-30 reports a minute from around the track and it makes me think that the track limits thing is peculiar to specific bits of motorsport... Either that or the clerks threatened to tear everyone a new one this weekend if they misbehaved!

[Trev Campbell]

Don't the cars have a sensor in the bottom of them to judge weather a jump start has occured ???? why not use that sensor and have detectors on the outside of the curbs, If the car goes over the back of the curb ie: off the track boundary they get a strike, 5 strikes = drive-through.

They tried to impliment something similar in the V8's here a few years ago, but totally ballsed it up. But with F1 tech and a bit of money it should be an easy fix