Ovals only, or mix it up?

[jhansen]

First off, this is not meant to be a CART/OWRS versus IRL thread. I'm interested in discussing the differences in the basic racing philosphies that each series offers. (If this has been covered before please merge or close as you see fit mods.)

Tony George's philosphy was to create an open wheel championship that featured the Indy 500. It was meant to be an oval racing series. There is the possibility of adding road courses, but for the purposes of this discussion I'd rather just stick to the oval aspect of the series.

CART always had a relatively diverse mix of tracks including street circuits, road courses, small ovals and large ovals. However, presently the oval mix has become rather thin.

But I got to thinking about a possible OWRS-IRL merger. Well if that happened I would think that the schedule would feature something along the lines of a 50-50 split of ovals and road/street circuits. My question is, as fans do you prefer the IRL's oval dominated schedule, do you want a mix like the old CART days, or something else? I'm looking for genuine opinions without getting a we vs. them argument.

The interesting thought is, this aspect alone may make it difficult to please all of the fans if a merger were to happen.

[BootsOntheSide]

Firstly, the vision for the IRL was never oval-only in the long-term. Tony George simply realised that it would be cheaper to only race on ovals, would attract more of the drivers and teams he wanted on track, would isntantly make the series close to the Indy 500, and could be prepared easier. Expanding to road/street racing was always something he considered a possibility.

The lack of oval races on the current CART schedule is largely down to venues defecting to the IRL under ISC/Penske direction, and the failure to form a lasting European visit include Brands and Lausitzring.

Overall, I feel taht a mixed schedule of roughly 12 road/street races and 8 ovals would be best. However, I think the IRL should run 3 or 4 non-oval races next year, while CART needs to consider dropping them, at least for now, if it can't reach that number - this may help them attract their target drivers, guys who want to reach F1.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by jhansen
But I got to thinking about a possible OWRS-IRL merger. Well if that happened I would think that the schedule would feature something along the lines of a 50-50 split of ovals and road/street circuits. My question is, as fans do you prefer the IRL's oval dominated schedule, do you want a mix like the old CART days, or something else? I'm looking for genuine opinions without getting a we vs. them argument.

The interesting thought is, this aspect alone may make it difficult to please all of the fans if a merger were to happen.

The 50/50 mix, is the exact reason why I don't want to see a merger.

The CC fans all seem to be wanting and demanding that mix, and why not, it would look like CART all over again. I mean, whats in it for an IRL fan? It's the ovals that are the reason we watch. If you want to have 2 road courses, for variety, I'm fine with that, it works for NASCAR, but start adding more, and soon you'll have CART II.

I really enjoy these cars on the ovals. There fast, agile, and just plain exciting to watch on them, and thats enough for me.

As for philosophies, these two series are going in different directions. OWRS is going international, the IRL is staying home. I also hear that OWRS wants to make there races part of a "lifestyle event". I think that means, that the race, will only be a small part of alot of different events during a race weekend. In other words, a big party. I think that denegrates and cheapens the series, and I wouldn't want to see the IRL become part of that...

[Tim Northcutt]

Well...

This is what Robin Miller would like to see...

and I think there are ex-CART teams that would like it as well...

Sam Hornish said on Windtunnel laast night that he will like running a couple of road circuits, but he doesn't want the Series to lose its oval focus...

I don't mind the possibility of running some "purpose-built" road courses, but I wouldn't do more than 4 if it were me

If the climate was right, it would be six... at the most....no street courses, unless it is St. Pete, Fla....sure, Long Beach has a history, and it is a "happening," but by golly the race is BORING every year!!!

I would keep the Oval focus for at least 2/3 of the events....

Since Sears Point and The Glen seem to be going forward (although we won't know until next week, I'd look at adding (in this order):

Mid-Ohio
Road America
Road Atlanta
Rauch Creek, PA (if they ever get it built...this is down the road)

If Rauch Creek wouldn't come about, then go to St. Pete...but add Atlanta and St. Pete only if you must go to six....


The question is, what ovals would you drop???

I don't think a 20 or 22-race season is feasible...that's a lot of dates to fit into a schedule....


and besides, with the mix of tracks they have now,...I like them all!!!

The IRL will have a great mix of a few short tracks (Richmond, Milwaukee, Pikes Peak, Phoenix, and even Nashville...too bad nazareth is going away)

plus some big ovals (Indy, MIS and Fontana)...

and the 1.5 mile tracks that...when you look at their layouts..aren't really "cookie cutter" at all...

Texas is shaped more like Charlotte

Chicagoland is more like a teardrop, with a curved backstretch

Kansas is built a little faster than Kentucky...more of a horsepower track....

Homestead now has a traditional shape, but the graduated high banks....

Motegi has its own "Darlington" or "Gateway" shape to it.

and each track really provides its own challenges to the teams and drivers....

Keep the big picture focus on the ovals!!!!

It is one reason why the IRL's racing action has been so great to watch the past few years....

[jhansen]

Thanks GP Racer. That's the kind of feedback I was looking for. I tend to think you're right, and that the two series are now so different, perhaps a merger would not be in the best interest of the sport. Especially if the fan base is that different. My only qualm would be are the bulk of the IRL fans satisfied by an oval dominated schedule?

Response to BootsOntheSide: NASCAR has two road courses and is an oval series. If the IRL adds three our four out of a 16 to 18 race schedule, it's still an oval series. In my opinion of course.

[Down F0rce]

A couple of road courses would be great. Four at the most. Definitaly no street courses.

[Kicking-back]

Agreed, DF. The racing on the oval courses is great - and a couple of road courses would add a little variety.

[jhansen]

I also agree with that. The oval racing from this series has been awesome and thrill packed. NASCAR can only hope for action like that in my opinion.

The schedule is currently 16 races long. It will drop to 14 with the loss of Nazereth and the second Texas race. Add Sears Point and Watkins Glen. And maybe one more road course venue in a market where the IRL has no presence. That would be a great schedule that would retain the essence of the series, but add some mix in there and break it up a bit.

[GP Racer]

The 2 road course schedule that NASCAR maintains, has worked well for that oval series, and it also worked for the old USAC schedule, before CART.

I've found, and this isn't scientific, that most American IRL fans, enjoy this series specifically because of the ovals, simply because its such an American style of racing. It's what we grew up with, and its where most of our racing legends come from. Other fans, that come from countries that have more of a road racing heritage, seem to want the IRL to change abit more.

Just an observation, and I could be very wrong... Naaaa!

[Kicking-back]

GP Racer, you're absolutely right.

[JohnSSC]

I often thought when CART was on the upsurge how ironic it was that with the ovals being so intrinsically "American" if you will that the road/street thing got so popular.

This was brought home to me when I took my Sweetie and my 12 yr old son to their first dirt track race last week. The whole atmosphere was hard to describe - almost like saying it was "Americana" if you will - completely different than the atmosphere at a sportscar race.

Perhaps the dichotomy here is not so much one series vs another but "road" vs "oval" racing. Maybe ovals should be the focus with road races thrown in for variety...

Hmmm, got me thinking now!

[jhansen]

Those are the exact same thoughts that made open this thread JohnSSC.

[slicktoast]

Keep it ovals even though the entry list reads like a Who's Who of CART. Indy is an 'oval' and that's the whole focus of the series, to develop oval racers for Indy. To go to the road courses makes it look fishy.

[evo]

I wanna see 50/50, like CART was in the mid 90's. Yes, I know, I'm living in the past. But I miss those days.

[drewdawg727]

Originally posted by GP Racer

As for philosophies, these two series are going in different directions. OWRS is going international, the IRL is staying home.

...Motegi?

[Down F0rce]

Standard track if you want Honda and Toyota.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by JohnSSC
Perhaps the dichotomy here is not so much one series vs another but "road" vs "oval" racing. Maybe ovals should be the focus with road races thrown in for variety...

Hmmm, got me thinking now!

Thats what I'm talking about John, the focus has to be on ovals, and just throw in a couple of the road races.

CART in its heydays, was probably the most successful road racing series ever in America. It caught our attention. It seemed to come along at the right time, and the fans ate it up. But for alot of reasons, there gone, and road racing here is dead right now. There is no road racing out there that appeal's to the masses, and I'm not sure road racing will ever capture the attention of the American public again, like CART did.

So we need to stick with the type of racing that has been true and steady here in the States for nearly a century, oval racing. Like it or not, thats our heritage and thats our history. It's what we do, and do well. Thats our "contribution" to the world of motorsports.

Hey, its not such a bad thing...

[Kicking-back]

Indeed.

There are other series - Champ Car and Sportscars who road race very well, so there's no need for IndyCar to get into it in a big way.

Just do 3 or 4 a year.

[sr230772]

just cant see it beining very finacilly viable for the irl to go road racing for just 2 races they cant use the cars they got at the momment so wheres the sense?

[BootsOntheSide]

Actually they can, with virtually no modifications. The ability to be fuelled on either side was purposefully build into them from an early stage. Right now, the IRL cars are more suited to road racing that CART's are for oval racing.

[Raven]

I'd want it to be like CART in the 90s. The ideal racing series.

[luke]

yeah the mid 90s was true indycar racin.

[paulzinho]

I always loved CART. What got me into it was the great cars (I loved turbos), brilliant drivers and most importantly its wide variety of courses.

Nowadays, I'm not sure what I prefer, though I'm continuously erring towards the IRL. They have the drivers and teams and seem the most likely to give me the mix of courses which I felt always made CART strong, why they have ditched that aspect I have no idea.

SO I guess my answer would be to mix it up as much as possible. When CART catered for all types of courses it was much stronger and I was definitely more interested. I guess my hope now is for the IRL to go this way over the next couple of years.... oh and then they can bring back turbos too!