Peuegot 205 T16 Post 1987

[Robin Plummer]

Well all know how great a car it was during the Group B and rally raids etc. Post 1987 Matt Alamaki and Terij Schie used them in Rallycross plus a few others in France did too. I note that unlike the evo models of the other rivals there was no 2.1 engine produced. Suddenly at the end 1990 they all disappeard (T16's) from rallycross why was that? And how did they develop the 1.8 engine to be competative because in rallying it was officaly rated at no more that 450bhp?

[Peter S]

Well Matti Alamaki wrapped his Peugeot 205 around a tree in finland effectively destroying it in some sort of a hill climb which is why he didnt race in the last round of the 1990 season. The car was presumbely scrapped.

Terje Schies version i belive was sold to the museam in France i belive.

Philip Wambergue drove a 205 T16 in france in 1989, as did Guy Frequlin who finished third in the French round of the european series(who is now the boss of the Citroen sport world rally team) in 1990. These cars belonged to Peugeot sport apperently.

As we all know the rallycross engines can be developed to be a lot more powerfuller than the rally versions. The same applied to the RS200's. I guess it comes down to the fact that they only need to run for around 3 minutes at a time therefore they can be pushed to the limit for longer when developing.

It was belived to be the most exspensive car to use and run in the whole championship which is why they werent around for more than the four years that they were.

[Barrie]

That was the short sharp answer, far to expensive to run. When Seppo Nittyamki first bought his ex works T16 it was by far the most expensive rallycross car ever seen and probably still is. I would go as far as to say that if Alamaki was still using that car today it would **** the ERC, even with a restrictor on.

[Peter S]

The 205 T16 is/was arguably the greatest rally car of all time. I have had a look for some info on this and there were no extra 205's built apart from the few that were built for the world rally championship to use. So the reason why there was only 4 was probably because these were the only version available.

I still think Hansen's Xsara would have the upper hand on the 205 now though, as the modern day cars are much easier to drive and the times are just as quick as the olden days on the continent.

One thing is for sure is thought the 205 was by far the best Group B car made in both rallying and rallycross. It was just ashame Schie got the other 205 as he was just a rich man making it a good car with a poor driver. It would have been good to see Nittymaki do battle with Alamaki in an idenitcal car, as i think nittymaki would have come out on top. I always rated Nittymaki as the better driver, but the Escort limited his capabilities until the 205 came on hand.....then he won the championship and quit!

[Stephen H]

Wasn"t Seppo"s Escort an Xtrac, similar to Welch & Schanche?

For me he looked most spectacular in the 4WD Porsche.

[Peter S]

It was similar to welch and shanches but not of the same speicfication. I think money had stopped development of the car which is why he struggled a bit

[chunder]

Seppo better than Matti, no way in the world. Matti beat him a few times in a dog of an S4.
Matti and the 205 were the epitome of man and machine in perfect harmony.
To answer a few of Robins questions:- Peugeot only ever used a 1.8 liter engine. This is what Seppo used in 87 to run at the lower weight limit.
In 88 Matti had a special motor built as the weights were changed again and his was built so that it couls still run in the lower weight category. Terje I think eventually went for a 1.9 but was never enough of a driver to compete with Matti.
They could still kick out 6oobhp though, allied to 890kg weight you can see why he won a lot. But I think he would still have won all the time. Schanche only got the RS right in 91 when Matti had packed up.
Finally Matti wanted to use a 205 in 85/86 but couldn't get his hands on one. Hence he had to use the Delta which was quick but didn't handle at all (still won three rounds in it).
So the story goes Matti had a word with Mr Kankkunen to get a 205, seemed to do the trick. No doubt the North State money that was paying for it helped too
They did receive some help from Peugeot I think, but that dried up when the rally raid team did.
Would have been great to see a 405 wouldn't it??

[Peter S]

If you look at the facts of european rallycross then 1987 was by far the hardest year to win which Seppo did. Alamaki was found wanting that year in his Lancia. I dont know much about 81 .....as i was only 6 months old, but in 85 in his Porsche it was one of the first real groupb b type cars to enter and the competition wasnt that good. Alamaki switched to the peugeot for 88 and won the title that and 89 and 90, but the competition levels in those years were not by any means as good as it was 1987. If Seppo had stayed then he would have beaten alamaki in the subsequent three years. In fact general opinion was that alamaki was one of the most disliked drivers in the sport. dont forget the reason why Alamaki didnt get any support in 1987 from peugeot was because they wanted Nittymaki to be the supported driver, as he would give them better returns for the backing and sponsorship which he truelly did.

People complain about the modern european championship that there were few drivers who compete in all the rounds but in 1989 when alamaki won it the amount drivers who did this were few and far between.

You only have to look at the dislike of alamaki to see what schanche did to him at the Swedish round of the european championship 1988 where he rammed him and put a massive hole in the back of the peugeot which earned Schanche a ban from racing.

[Barrie]

According to Mike Endean that built the original xtrac Escorts there was only 3 originals ever built, schanches's, Welch's and Nittymaki's and these were all the same spec, only difference between Schanche and Welch's was the rear axle. He mentioned out of the 3 the Nittymaki's was probably the best being the last built. Schanche's had 560bhp on 2 bar, the other two had slightly less power.

[Peter S]

yeah but Nittymaki didnt get his until near the start of the 1986 and used it for only 7/8 months in the season so it was going to be a development year for him, where as Welch and schanche had theres in 1984 so it was a more proven package for them. Also Schanche had the better funding of the lot which is why his successes came as Welch arguably was just as quick but never had the proper funding to take on the big boys as well as he would like to. The same can be said of Nittymaki who never had the proper backing until 87 where he had chance to compete in the Peugeot. Dont forget welch had a lot of input from Ford as well, which is how the Johnathon Palmer drive came about for the 1987 Grand Prix.

When Alamaki got the 205 for 88 it was clear that it was about machine rather than driver. North State provided him with funding which made other drivers budgets look like a joke which is why the hat trick of titles came about. It was a clear case of money buying success.

Alamaki never ever came to the Grand Prix after 1987 which was rather strange. He only once raced in the inter nations cup in 1987 and again acted like a spoilt baby racing for Finland. He is the one driver in rallycross i never liked and never respected.

[Robin Plummer]

One more question the Delta S4 was second to the T16 in rallying but did little in rallycross and why were there hardly any available or used?

[Peter S]

I guess again was purely down to cost. As these were also very exspensive. The RS200 was popular because Ford got more involved than any other manufacturer and put a lot of development into the rallycross version of the car. Johnathon Palmers Rs200 that he raced in 1988 and 1989 was an evo 2 model of the Ford which was owned by Ford and used purely for development. There car he used was also driven by stig Blomqvist and palmer used it in a few rounds of the Gb championship.

The Lancia was very much like the 205, but i also guess that Lancia were not willing to provide any technical back up. Italian manufactuers tend to be like that only want to make a limited number of cars and those will be put into one basket which was rallying at the time. A bit like Alfa romeo and touring cars nowadays, Ferrari/fiat in formula one.

[chunder]

Think I may have stirred up a storm here. I agree that Matti wasn't well liked but you cannot argue with his skill as a driver.
He did win three rounds in taht pig awful Delta and utterly dominated in 88-90. Noone got close apart from Schanche.
As for there being no competition I utterly disagree.
In 87 Seppo had a funded 205 against a load od guys in brnd new unsorted cars. The 205 was utterly sorted off the bat.
When Matti won you had Schanche,Gollop,Schie,Rennison,Arnesson in attendnace regularly.
out of those only Schanche and Olle were real threats in 87.
All I do know is that Matti drove that thing on the edge, he may have had loadsa money and not been liked a lot but he was by far the best at the time.
As for going on about Schanche. Finland 1992!! I rest my case.

[Barrie]

Id have to agree with you Chunder, 89 when Alamaki won his second championship Id say that was when the ERC was at its strongest. Yes he did have a big budget but so did the other European stars. To question his driving skills I find a bit odd, he had great car control. Martin Schanche's my all time favourite rallycross driver, but Id have to say Alamaki was equally as skillful and a cooler temprament.

[Peter S]

In 1988 Arnesson raced in 3 rounds. In Norway he won the c b and a final becoming only one of two drivers (Richard in 1994 was the other one in portugal) to achive this. Schanche had an exclusion and therefore had a ban and had to count the exclusion Gollop didnt do all the rounds eithr. Schie was just a rich old man in a good group b car. No where near as competitive as 1987. As for 1989 then no one bothered as only five drivers did all rounds. And 1990 rallycross started to come to life after alamaki left which meant all the drivers returned to the series.

I am not saying alamaki was **** as a driver, all i am trying to say is that Nittymaki won in 1987 which was the most competitive championship ever, with the drivers he was racing against. I thought that year was the best year in history and that Seppo left rallycross as one of the greats that never actually won barrell loads of titles.

As for 87 Welch was a lot mroe competitve, as was Nordstrom, Nillson, Dan ANderson, Ingvar Carlsson, Pelthari, Lestander, Bratlie, Martinson. There were a lot more competitive cars as everyone was more on a equal footing and it was more about the driver.

I know about Schanche but that is what everyone loved. A Showman just like Paul Tracy in CART racing. Schanche is undoubtelby the greatest of all time. The showman of all showmen! His car control could not be beaten.

[Barrie]

Wouldn't agree, it was the same 6 or 7 drivers making the A finals each round in 87, Nittymaki had the superior machinery that year without doubt.

89 was once again same 6 or 7 drivers making A final but these guys were all pretty closely matched.

Have to agree with you on one thing Peter, Alamaki wasn't the most popular champion. though I did used to love watching his cars.

[Peter S]

Here are some stats:

1987 - 18 different A finalists in the year. 4 different winners. Lap times between top six around 1-2 seconds difference

1988 - 15 different A finalists in the year. 4 different winners. Laps times around 3-4 seconds covering the top six.

1989 - 14 different A finalists in the year. 2 different winners. Of which 6 off those were in 1 off rounds. Alamaki won 9 out of 11 as there was only five drivers who competed in the majority of the championship. Lap times around 6-8 seconds covering the top six

Lap times based on qualifying heats. In 1989 Steve palmer finished fourth and he only raced at 7 rounds.

[chunder]

I have to agree with parts of what you say Peter in that in 87 everyone was on an egual footing.
Most of the cars were brand new and half the drivers couldn't really afford to test or anything.
Was very amused by your reference to Ingvar Carlsson. I think the guys name was actually Anders Karlsson if it is thye same guy, he drove a Quattro S1 I think. But I also think that guys like Bratlie, Peltarri, Andersson an d Lestander were no where near the pace regularly.
I think we shall just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think Matti was the best we have seen purely on a driving level.
Martin, Kenneth and Will did far more for the sport as far as PR and entertainment but watching Matti four wheel drifting through Paddock at Lydden is one thing I shall never forget. Never has any other driver been so completely at one with his car in rallycross.

[Peter S]

yeap i think we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

Do you remember the Nitymaki v schanche race in 1987 from lydden hill? I think it was the first qualifying heat. Just before the start line Nitymaki passed coming off chessons drift then schanche cut back and sliced through to take the win.

And how about Welch making that lunge at Arnesson coming down the hill. That was sheer commitment on welch's behalf that earned him a penalty for contact.

[Robin Plummer]

I think the reason Alamaki did so well is you have to look at what was one of the best rallycars ever, setup well. It handled so well it looked like it was on rails in rallycross form.

[chunder]

Yes Peter I do remember that race, Martin totally outfoxed Seppo if I remember right and just waited as the 205 driver over commited himself in his efforts to get past. The ultimate in cool overtaking manouveres.
Also I remember Rennison pulling off a couple of round the outsiders at Chessons, but not quite able to pull one off on Schanche in the A Final.
Welch was a very under rated driver in my opinion, you have to say that during a lot of his career he was developing brand new cars, first the different rear end in the Ztrac, then the totally unique Opel.
You guys must remember the Terje Schie round the outside at Samson in the Inter Nations Cup. V brilliant. And also the remarkable drives in the car first time out in 87, beating Rennison at Cadwell (I was there) and then running very well at the Croft Inter Nations.
Brillant, oh for a time travel machine!!!

[Robin Plummer]

Have you noticed one thing....everyone loves the cars and racing of the past (especially the raw 1980's). Todays computer designed Jelly Mould cars and Polictally Correct driving and high costs are not as good. No one say's remember that Honda Civic you know the one that looks exactly like a Toyota Corrolla overtake such and such a flame came out the exhaust you know exciting!

[Peter S]

the best drive from welch i thought was the one against schanche in the b final of the 1990 internations cup at Croft. HE drove his heart out that day.

I dont have much info on the 1985 european season? did he win a round of the european championship in norway that year?

[chunder]

Don't think John ever won a European round actually Peter. Only Rennison, Doran, Gollop Hutton, Nick Jones and Trevor Reeves have won Euro rounds in big cars.
He may have won some of the bigger European races but never an A final. Bizarre really, but in 85 he did actually try and push the four wheel drive cars in the UK by driving in the British championship and staying away from Europe. He had to race with a time penalty so had to get away from the other cars like Dennis Atkinson, Rob Gibson, Mark Lloyd, Gollop in the Saab and others. Funnily enough in 86 some of the Brits got GpB cars. Often think if it wasn't for Welch this country would have been far behind in the heyday of the sport.

[Peter S]

It was just that on the 1985 british rallycross grand prix video Murray Walker said that John had won an event in Norway that year with his new Escort and cant find out which event Murray was reffering to.