2008 VMRC dates

[PVDA]

Found this on Calder's web site and will probably be handy for those of us who like to plan their events (and sleeping arrangements) in advance.

Round 1 - February 2 Calder Park (Day/Night Meeting)
Round 2 - March 1-2 Sandown
Round 3 - April 12-13 Winton
Round 4 - May 17-18 Phillip Island
Round 5 - June 21-22 Calder Park
Round 6 - July 26-27 Sandown
Round 7 - August 23-24 Winton
Round 8 - September 20-21 Calder Park
Round 9 - October 18-19 Phillip Island
Round 10 - November 15-16 Winton

This is a combined AASA/CAMS series so;
Winton & Calder = AASA sanctioned
Sandown & PI = CAMS sanctioned.

Good to see state level competitors can play at all four tracks without having to choose sides.

[Bullett]

I agree, good to see its getting sorted out and good work by all involved to make the calendar so evenly spread out for competitors, obviously both sides compromised but its a great looking calendar, Superkarts will also be running in 2008. However its not called VMRC...Bring on the racing!

[Uncle Cranker]

And aren't both groups currently embracing the other's series wholehatredly.

Old feelings still apparently run deep;

Don't be fooled into thinking that one half are keen for 'their' competitors to go and play at any of the other 6 rounds.


Anyway, time (and associated BS) will be the decider, and I'll be at least 7 of the rounds. And yes I'll continue to deliver some BS all year.


Bring on the racing, and maybe a larger number of Victorian racers might be game enough to re-discover how much fun a state series can be.

[Dasher]

This is the best news for a very long time with regards to Victorian Motor Racing of all divisions.

If the current truce/partnership can hang together in the long term it can only be a huge win for all sides.

Does anyone know who the co-ordinator is & what the series is called?

[ssracer]

As a state racer i am still very undecided on how i should proceed with this years racing.
a) i defiantly cannot afford 11 race meetings ( inc Magic)
b) if i support the AASA rounds, would this adversely affect the viability of the VSCRC rounds
c) if the VSCRC ends up unviable, all power in Vic. state racing will end up in the hands of private enterprise i.e. No profit no Interest! More profit the better!
d) I Think costs will rise way above current if private enterprise gets a monopoly
e) I see no way that it could be more FUN racing in the VMRC that VSCRC,
f) Winton and Calder are likely to stay as race tracks for a long time even without state racing.
g) The Island and Sandown once lost may never be regainable as race tracks
h) Every entry is helping finance and promote that individual championship .
i) VSCRC and by its former name has served me very well, as a paying competitor i cannot ever remember having a problem. (Anything that i could see a more suitable solution to)
j) I would truly love to be able to race at Calder and Winton at VSCRC rounds

I think that for anyone thinking the decision is easy , is not looking far enough ahead.
BUT i want to race at Calder & Winton now!!!!!

[Matthew Ronke]

so would the VSCRS work at Sandown and Phillip Island if CAMS reduced its fees or is there some sort of terminal problem were it will die anyway? Very interested there are always question marks over Sandown but didn't know Phillip island is on the hooks, why do you come to this conclusion.

[ssracer]

If the VSCRC was to run at winton. sandown and the island, nothing could stop it. Nothing.
$100 difference in entery fees is a drop in the sea, wouldent cover the crew and family coffee bill at the winton canteen for the event ( OK any track canteen ) .
And is the difference just an introductory offer
As for the island , no facts other than it as a valuble piece of land

[Trevor]

Some excellent questions ssracer. I am glad Matt has decided to respond.

[aussiefveeracer]

The major problem with this "merged" 2008 state series in Vic is there are far too many state races, let alone other interstate events. I could race at 13 different meetings this year, which is not far behind what the V8s manage with their mega buck sponsorship.

I’ve only spotted seven tangable differences between AASA and CAMS meetings in Vic:
1. Excluding accommodation and hiring a garage, I pay on average just under half the price in practice and entry fees at Winton and Calder, compared to Phillip Island and Sandown;
2. Hiring a garage is at Sandown and Phillip Island is more expensive than staying two nights at a five-star hotel;
3. You typically get six sessions over the Sat and Sun at Winton and Calder, but only five at Sandown and a pathetic four sessions at Phillip Island (yet I can get four sessions on the Friday at PI for $150...???);
4. AASA rounds have Virgin Blue style turnarounds between sessions, which whilst a little risky if something on track takes a little longer than expected, it strikes a good balance, unlike PI where you often need a packed lunch whilst waiting at the dummy grid (I wonder when was the last time the officials sat stationary in a warm race car with suit and helmet on with no sun protection…);
5. Post incident checking and clearances are more thorough at Phillip Island and Sandown, than what AASA requires (which borders on laughable);
6. I can't get licence signatures at AASA events on my CAMS licence (understandable from each organisations point of view, but disadvantages the competitors on both sides so no one wins), and
7. I still have to waste my Sat and Sun mornings on pointless car checks at Winton and Calder. Understand the car should be independently checked every now and then, but why on earth would I drive out on a circuit in a dangerous car, and if I do haven’t I and my fellow drivers signed enough waivers to protect the promoter from the result of my stupid actions.

I see that both sides have room to improve, but if CAMS delivered a killer blow by matching AASA’s fees for competitors, and PI gave competitors at least one more session over Sat and Sun, the only thing going for the AASA rounds is the two tracks they control.

[Dasher]

Matthew, please answer this,

Will the same classes as run at the AASA meetings at Calder and Winton be run at the Sandown & PIsland meetings,such as:

Super TT,
BMW,
2ltSS,
Historics
Saloons

OR

Because you will also have the VSCRC series being run in conjunction at the same meetings including:

Porsche 944,
FVee,
Sports Sedan,
MG's,
HQ's,
Improved Production
Sports Cars

Thats a lot of classes to get through or will some classes be combined with others like HQ's & Saloons, Sports Sedans & 2lss, Super TT & Improved Production or something of the like????

[MosquitoByte]

Originally Posted by aussiefveeracer

[COLOR=black]4. AASA rounds have Virgin Blue style turnarounds between sessions, which whilst a little risky if something on track takes a little longer than expected, it strikes a good balance, unlike PI where you often need a packed lunch whilst waiting at the dummy grid (I wonder when was the last time the officials sat stationary in a warm race car with suit and helmet on with no sun protection…);

One wonders Aussiefveeracer, how many competitors appreciate the fact that the vast majority of officials at a circuit, are indeed out in the ALL weather, often dangerous conditions where the competitors won't run. There they are, rain, hail, lightening storms (surrounded by conductive material), blistering heat and the odd abusive competitor.

This goes for AASA & CAMS events, so don't go tarring us all with your particularly chosen brush.

Without Track-side, in fact, ANY official, this sport would not survive. So before you cite that sort of grievance, think carefully on what would happen if we all decided we'd had enough. It wouldn't matter who had the upper hand then would it?

Back to the topic, don't anyone get excited about CAMS & AASA having a truce, my sources suggest that this has been driven by the competitors groups, basically presenting the two bodies with an ultimatum of sorts. This is a good thing, for both claim to represent the competitor, yet; in my opinion, both fall short in different areas when it comes to this claim.

Sermon ends.

Mos.

[Bullett]

Originally Posted by Dasher

Does anyone know who the co-ordinator is & what the series is called?

The combined 10 round series is called VMRS incorporating the CAMS championship

[Bullett]

Originally Posted by Dasher

Matthew, please answer this,

Will the same classes as run at the AASA meetings at Calder and Winton be run at the Sandown & PIsland meetings,such as:

Super TT,
BMW,
2ltSS,
Historics
Saloons

OR

Because you will also have the VSCRC series being run in conjunction at the same meetings including:

Porsche 944,
FVee,
Sports Sedan,
MG's,
HQ's,
Improved Production
Sports Cars

Thats a lot of classes to get through or will some classes be combined with others like HQ's & Saloons, Sports Sedans & 2lss, Super TT & Improved Production or something of the like????

Not likely to see all the categories at each, the opening Sandown round in March will have all the normal categories plus E30 BMW's and Saloon cars (as per last year) and possibly Superkarts. I guess you can expect to see split grids for some categories. (ie E30 and IP). The Calder opening round will have the usual AASA categories as per last year to. The Competitors group has worked very hard and categories have chosen rounds they want to compete at. A few have chosen 1x Calder, 1/2x Winton, 2x Sandown, 2x Phillip Island. You'll have to keep an ear open to know which classes will run at the AASA rounds as categories like IP will do 2 AASA events from memory. Still its a big development for Vic state racing...

[Matthew Ronke]

I don't know which are running at what events. But having the extra rounds has opened up the championship to categories like the Saloon's and to an extent the E30’s. Its an evolution and a number of people have put hard work into it. It also provides capacity to grow in the future. Kudos must go to people like John Good, Michael Herlahey and Michael Ronke and Terry Wade who were the ones that originally put the concept together and worked at this from a competitors point of view. I was lucky enough to attend this first meeting. The reins have been taken by John Morris who has been the main contributor and Michael Stilwell of late and recognition must go to them for there work.

Your correct in saying Winton and Calder probably don't need state racing at their venues. But they see it as an important part of the pathway of motorsport. That's why I would refute the claims that the two are after a monopoly on state racing in a bid to extract profits.

In fact I would suggest its the other way around. Win/Cald are both happy to be in a joint series were VSCRS don't wish too. VSCRS want a monopoly on the series, why??

Your correct suggesting that not all of the water has run under the bridge. I said it in another thread AASA (Winton/Calder) have a competitor (actually co-promoters in this instance) and CAMS (VSCRS) have an enemy.

[Matthew Ronke]

Originally Posted by Bullett

The combined 10 round series is called VMRS incorporating the CAMS championship

Unfortunately there is a better chance of me receiving a Rising Star scholarship from CAMS than CAMS recognising a 10 Round series. They have not in the past, they have put out information for 2008 saying there is only four rounds and they won't in the future.

This will ultimately make CAMS irrelevant.

[aussiefveeracer]

Originally Posted by MosquitoByte

One wonders Aussiefveeracer, how many competitors appreciate the fact that the vast majority of officials at a circuit, are indeed out in the ALL weather, often dangerous conditions where the competitors won't run. There they are, rain, hail, lightening storms (surrounded by conductive material), blistering heat and the odd abusive competitor.

I know what you are talking about and I absolutely appreciate that fact more than you'd probably realise.

You must also appreciate that whilst officials are volunteers and vital, the show on the track is what everyone is there to see, and the competitors have generally made a very significant financial sacrifice to be there. So I suppose its a solid two-way street of mutual respect.

So if you re-read what I said, I was not having a dig at the vast majority of officials, as I was quite clearly talking about a situation at PI only. I know the same officials attend all circuits, but there is some factor at PI that causes a much more significant delay between arriving at the dummy grid and getting on track, than any other track in Vic (or any where else I've been). Of course I'm sitting in a car, and like all dummy grids there is very little communication to the competitors (hence you see us all watching for the slightest sign that we might be moving out), so the cause of the expanded timeframe is a complete mystery.

Given this problem is almost non-existent at AASA rounds, and less of an issue at Sandown, I was merely suggesting officials running the show at PI think about the delay and what effect it causes on competitors, and then address the cause(s), for whatever they may be. And I'm then guessing all they would be doing by resolving the issue is providing a consistent experience for both the competitors and officials.

Sorry for the slightly off topic post....just felt I needed to highlight that a vast majority competitors don't have the lack of respect for officials that a vast majority of officials think competitors do.

[NewsStalker]

aussiefveeracer - to understand the PI situation you need to look at the people running those rounds. Not the personalities as such, but where they believe they fit into Australian motor sport.

In the main, the majority of KEY officials at PI are also key officials at the AGP - where everything - from the morning officials muster to the race directors hourly drinks - are mapped out in a minute by minute schedule (in many places second by second).

These same officials believe they are the best around (often debatable) and therefore because they officiate at the (supposedly) best event in the country (ie the AGP) they can apply all they put into practice at Albert Park (and formerly Adelaide) at any other event they run - in this case Phillip Island.

Thus you must have track opening and closing between events, you must have the countdown before an event (no short minutes here) and you must adhere to the schedule - even if you are running 20 minutes behind it!

This isn't e new phenomenom - it has been going on for close to 20 years. And, if you also look a bit more closely, you will see the same names and faces now as way back then with very few new names coming through to take over.

Overall it is called the 'PIARC mentality - we are motor sport - don't disagree with us, we know best.' (And heaven help anyone that disagrees with them in any way!)

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

aussiefveeracer - to understand the PI situation you need to look at the people running those rounds. Not the personalities as such, but where they believe they fit into Australian motor sport.

In the main, the majority of KEY officials at PI are also key officials at the AGP - where everything - from the morning officials muster to the race directors hourly drinks - are mapped out in a minute by minute schedule (in many places second by second).

These same officials believe they are the best around (often debatable) and therefore because they officiate at the (supposedly) best event in the country (ie the AGP) they can apply all they put into practice at Albert Park (and formerly Adelaide) at any other event they run - in this case Phillip Island.

Thus you must have track opening and closing between events, you must have the countdown before an event (no short minutes here) and you must adhere to the schedule - even if you are running 20 minutes behind it!

This isn't e new phenomenom - it has been going on for close to 20 years. And, if you also look a bit more closely, you will see the same names and faces now as way back then with very few new names coming through to take over.

Overall it is called the 'PIARC mentality - we are motor sport - don't disagree with us, we know best.' (And heaven help anyone that disagrees with them in any way!)

You've hit the nail on the head with that. It's a state round, not the AGP. If they realized that, they would probably get more events in, finish earlier or something that no ever thinks of and that's start the day later.

That Club, and I'm not afraid to say it, are a cancer on motor sport in Victoria and the rest of the country!!

[ssracer]

Do we all accept that Sandown and Phillip Island cost far more to hire than Winton or Calder.

Originally Posted by Matthew Ronke

Your correct in saying Winton and Calder probably don't need state racing at their venues. But they see it as an important part of the pathway of motorsport. That's why I would refute the claims that the two are after a monopoly on state racing in a bid to extract profits.

In fact I would suggest its the other way around. Win/Cald are both happy to be in a joint series were VSCRS don't wish too. VSCRS want a monopoly on the series, why??

Do” they” see Sandown and P.I. as equally important?

For all competitors reading this it is my opinion that if the VSCRC fails due to the high track hire costs not being meet by sufficient numbers, you and i will not get to race at Sandown and P.I. unless you can afford to run at National meetings. If P.I. track hire is $60,000 that is $200 out of the entry fee, from 300 competitors. (Just for track hire).

Winton was happy to run rounds of 100 entrys of $200 =$20,000 total.
VMRC is well aware that there are currently at least 300 Victorian entrants that are prepared to pay $300+ to go racing.

There is a lot of Smoke and mirrors
Still no easy answer for me!

There is nothing wrong with private enterprise except as a monopoly in running motorsport
( What is VSCRS or is that a dig)

[Silver 3]

To start with-- the thread title should be changed o the correct title-- that is VMRS-- standing for the obvious.Change it.
Categories are doing chosen rounds-- not all categories will be at all rounds. This is a significant point that will test the intentions of some promoters.
Fun-- interesting irrelevent point-- to suggest non Winton/Calder rounds are not fun is ludicrous. A point some barrow pushers need to get over and start to actually recognise the categories themselves have a major part to play in the way things are done and what is ACTUALLY wanted. EG-- much has been made of fines handed out at Cams meetings-- yes some are silly-- on the other hand seeing your car suffer big dollar damage and out for some time due to the careless actions of others is not fun. The undiscplined actions of others should not go unnoticed-- and before some nonsense gets quoted about losing points and going to the back of the grid etc-- put that in the context of a repeat offender causing major problems.and damage
The Track time issue-- while it is desirable to get as much time as possible there is a limit to the practicality. The faster cars require turn around time between races.the cost per minute of running is high-- so simplistically presuming that more is better is incorrect.
The delays mentioned above-- not only Piarc issue--this can happen anywhere. In recent times I have looked fairly closely at the timing of programming etc and am definately more understanding of issues facing race control and the difficulties. That is not to say all is perfect-- it is not. A lot of progress has been made and the category input not insignicant.It is about time that those who constantly can Piarc and Cams( and others) got on with getting their particular patch right. The reality is -you too have plenty to do-- you have all had plenty to say-- so focus on the neccessary improvements across the board including some of the more difficult personalities and mickey mouse approach and direct your energies into that.See how you go with constant critics watching every move.
What seems to have been overlooked is that this does represent progress-albeit begrudgingly-- but is progress. Making it work is far more important than the petty ego's of some.Everybody wants to claim that they act in the best interests of competitors-- lets see that those competitor interests are best served in all of this.

[Matthew Ronke]

Originally Posted by ssracer

Do we all accept that Sandown and Phillip Island cost far more to hire than Winton or Calder.



Do” they” see Sandown and P.I. as equally important?

For all competitors reading this it is my opinion that if the VSCRC fails due to the high track hire costs not being meet by sufficient numbers, you and i will not get to race at Sandown and P.I. unless you can afford to run at National meetings. If P.I. track hire is $60,000 that is $200 out of the entry fee, from 300 competitors. (Just for track hire).

Is that a fair market value they are charging, from what I am reading from what you have posted it is not as the VSCRC (apologies if I had acronym wrong) can't afford to run there. I guess your real beef should be with these two organisations, If you can't make these events stand on their own two feet then yes they will disappear. Blaming the VMRC is not the solution to the problem the VSCRC have. If the people in the VSCRC can't make the event financial then perhaps they should move on and let someone else try.

Instead of putting pressure on the VMRC to raise their entry fees, shouldn't pressure be on for the Sandown and P events to lower costs. This would be better option for the competitors.

[aussiefveeracer]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

The Track time issue-- while it is desirable to get as much time as possible there is a limit to the practicality. The faster cars require turn around time between races.the cost per minute of running is high-- so simplistically presuming that more is better is incorrect.

When did promoters/race control become concerned about the cost of running cars? And why do you/they think less track time is the solution….??? A bigger gap between races to allow cars to be ready is also a very poor reason and excuse. Anyone in motorsport knows that what happens on track is the main game, but without good time management and preparation, you won’t get there. That is part of the race on a race weekend in getting a car ready. You don’t see cars not making the track at AASA meetings with three sessions per day. In fact you don’t even see cars hanging around in the paddock during a practice day at any circuit (including PI) where there is four or more sessions. Whether getting a car ready for race or practice, the preparation between the sessions is exactly the same if any value is to be extracted from the session by the driver.

Originally Posted by Silver 3

The delays mentioned above-- not only Piarc issue--this can happen anywhere. In recent times I have looked fairly closely at the timing of programming etc and am definately more understanding of issues facing race control and the difficulties. That is not to say all is perfect-- it is not.

But the delay’s I’m referring to only affect PI state round events. If an accident happens, no one is questioning the reason for the delay. Competitors want to know that sessions might be delayed to ensure they get proper assistance if they’ve had an issue on the track, so they’ll happily wait for a fellow driver to be rescued. They also want a good track to drive on, that is also safe, so they’ll wait for officials to achieve that. But the delay at Phillip Island is caused whether or not the previous session has caused a problem. The funny part is Friday practice at PI works perfectly. Well managed, plenty of track time with long sessions, good safety record and generally on schedule.

[Silver 3]

The relevence of track time-- it costs $ X per minute to run a car. The faster the car-the higher the dollar cost. Increasing track time does not improve quality-- in fact it reduces it. The Sports Sedan example illustrates this perfectly. Racing should be about quality-not quantity. There is a point that you get to too much time-- that was my point. Promoters do not control this cost-- but the simplistic more,more,more approach is not necessarily a plus. Practice is practice-- and at P.Is they are dealing with substantially less cars than at race meeting. To make a point-- there is disproportionate amount of time given to F/Vee on those practice days.It is not divide evenly into classes so F/F and F/Vee do very well out of that. If you look at Sandown teh Friday is not so good in time available.

[Silver 3]

[QUOTE=aussiefveeracer]When did promoters/race control You don’t see cars not making the track at AASA meetings with three sessions per day.

Not correct-- if you look at categories almost generally-- there are substantially less starters in the last race for category on the weekend compared to qualifying or the first race. AASA meeting at Winton and Calder prove the point I am making. looks even worse if you also do not count those running signifcantly slower than R1.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by aussiefveeracer

[COLOR=black]
But the delay’s I’m referring to only affect PI state round events. If an accident happens, no one is questioning the reason for the delay. Competitors want to know that sessions might be delayed to ensure they get proper assistance if they’ve had an issue on the track, so they’ll happily wait for a fellow driver to be rescued. They also want a good track to drive on, that is also safe, so they’ll wait for officials to achieve that. But the delay at Phillip Island is caused whether or not the previous session has caused a problem. .

You said in earlier post that you were sitting all kitted up on the marshalling grid-- so how would you know what was causing delay? As I said previously-- in recent times I have watched carefully this particular issue-- not just at P.Is-
and most C of c are moving as fast as possible. I guess what I am saying is that when you look at bigger picture issues you become more tolerant - and certainly understanding. I also emphasize that this is down to the decision making individuals-- not an AASA vs CAMS issue.