The Cost of 4 Stroke GPs

[Valentinik]

there has been widespread speculation about the high cost associated with the GP bikes going 4-stroke, the suggestion being that only the biggest teams could afford to be competitive. It suprised me to read the following in british mag Superbike. they had a ride of all the main contenders in BSB and featured as much technical info as the teams would provide. the INS Ducati that Hodgson won the title on has new pistons, cylinders, valves and rockers every 500 kms and a new crankcase every 1000kms and crank every 4000kms. As far as Ducati goes the cost cant rise any higher unless they start changing engine components mid race. Clearly if this was the case with a 6 cylinder engine the cost of 4 stroke racing is going to be huge.

[Lazy Boy]

No kidding....the whole thing makes no sense to me.

Remember the costs you mentioned are for a PRODUCTION based 2 cyl.

Go to a 6 cyl and just the costs of maintenance goes way up.

Then factor in all the engineering costs of simply designing, engineering, casting, machining, and assembling ALL NEW parts for an ALL NEW engine starting with a blank sheet of paper.

And remember you can't re-coup these costs by producing replicas to sell to the public... because that would make it "not a prototype".

I'm telling you...

The way to go that makes sense is to move the existing Superbikes over to GP and run them against the 2 strokes.

Then use SuperSport (Production) rules in "WSB".

Like I said before the SS bikes are only barely slower than SB's anyway...and the spectators won't know the difference.

And I think it would be cool to use "naked bike's" body packages (no full fairings) to make the WSB bikes look different from GP bikes....like Monster's, Bandit's, the new Fazer, ZRX1100... but keep the mods down to SS rules.

[elephino]

The cost of actually racing the bikes probably won't go up a huge amount, apart from the actual manufacturing costs of the parts but there will be large increases in testing to test all new parts and bikes and this is a large part of why only the big teams are most likely to be the only ones to do well (at least initially) as they have the money to do all this and more.

[Lazy Boy]

Consider this.

Who is going to do this?..(the 4 stroke thing)

Yamaha?...Honda?...Suzuki?...they all currently run a 2-stroke program.

If any of them do this...Are they going to continue to run their existing 2-stroke program?

Spend all the money on designing developing and manufacturing the new stuff..while continuing to run the old stuff?

So the quantity of employees for building engines, machining parts, fabricating parts, tuning and wrenching in the pits.....ALL DOUBLE ??....or more than likely TRIPLE?

Being new...and being 4 strokes... means it will probably take more than twice as many people as is currently required to run the 2-stroke program.

And now add in the people currently doing those jobs in the 2 stroke program.

That totals up to TRIPLE the quantity of people, square footage of floor space, machine tools, etc.

Who is going to want to do this?

Would you?

The alternative...??????

KILL THE 2 STROKES....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gag....Puke........Gasp......Choke.

The Death of Two Stroke GP Motorcycle Racing is upon us !!!!!!!!!!!!

Gag.....Puke......Gasp.......Choke.

Bassttards !!!!!!!!!!!

I hate their GUTS !!!!!!!

We already HAVE Focken 4 stroke racing....dammit !!!!!!!!!

And I thought Eddie Lawson switching to Honda in '89'(?)
was the beginning of purgatory !!!!!

I'm going to be sick.

[elephino]

Don't quote me on this one, but supposedly some companies already have 4 strokes running as quick as 2 strokes. Not sure I believe it myself actually as last I heard Suzuki only had plans, Honda didn't have much more and Yamaha didn't have a huge amount either....so not sure where this comes from.

[Valentinik]

my understanding of the current state of play is as follows:

Honda has not built an engine yet. they have publicly ruled out using a twin (not enough power) or a six (too heavy/large) They will make an announcement early in the new year as to the engine they have designed.

Yamaha is rumored to have built a V4 which has lapped their test track faster than the 2 stroke. Yamaha will not confirm or deny.

Kawasaki are rumored to have a 4 cylinder bike with over 230bhp which laps quickly but destroys any brand of tyre within 7 laps. Kawasaki will not confirm or deny.

Aprilia have a four stroke engine being designed in conjunction with Cosworth. I think i read somewhere that it will be a V4.

Suzuki have said that they are going to develop a 4-stroke. It isnt a coincidence that the new GSX-R 1000 is actually 988cc. Development work can be conducted in Formula extreme racing and then the lessons learned can be applied to their GP bike (which of course will be different enough to be a prototype)

Ducati have stated that they are monitoring the situation and that if WSB starts to wane then they will join the GPs.

Drysdale want to build a V8. Benelli are havig second thoughts about WSB. Sauber-Petronas technologies are rumored to be thinking about building an engine (possibly wishful thinking from Dorna) BMW deny being interested. Harley Davidson hehehehe?

[Lazy Boy]

Yes....But are you happy...or satisfied...or comfortable with the idea that this is likely the death of the 2 stroke GP bike? (at least for 500's)

I'm not... because when 2-strokes were coming on and getting faster... was when my memories of GP racing start...with Hailwood and Agostini riding the "old" 4 strokes, and the "new wave" of powerful 2-strokes started to take wins away from them....and proceeded to prove they were the superior engine for a roadracing motorcycle.

And now they will probably drift away into history because of an organizations attempt to appeal to a larger audience.
(by allowing 4 strokes twice as much displacement)

I guess I will be OK with that.... till they put some kind of restrictions on the 2-strokes to slow them.

This would be fun....All the big manufacturers running 1000cc expensive 4 strokes...and all the small teams running the 500cc cheaper 2-strokes (Aprilia, Modenas, BSR? or ???).

As I read the rules in the 4 stroke situation you CAN'T USE a twin cyl....so Honda couldn't use one if they wanted.

[Redneck]

The whole move by the FIM to 4-strokes is in direct retaliation to the threat of the World Superbike Series and its growing popularity.

Lazy Boy- You will not see the present WSB converge with the FIM. Not without a gun to their head. They are kicking the FIM's butt, market wise.

I think you will see all of the manufacturers make a serious push into the 4-stroke area simply because of the USA. The US market represents too much of the market share for them to ignore. 2-strokes (unfortunately) are not available in the USA. It would not surprise me to see the manufacturers actually attempt to sink the 2-stroke designs for racing.

Some of the 4 strokes are actually very near lap times of 2-strokes at some tracks. One of the things learned by Team Suzuki several years ago, in the Formula USA series, is that +200 hp bikes have a much more serious problem than tire shredding. It is called keeping the front wheel on the ground! Kurt Hall struggled with this when Team Suzuki was using the "Methanol Monster" that was over 200 hp. The bike was so wheelie prone that they couldn't get faster lap times. The only answer was to lengthen the wheel base, which has serious complications with being able to turn quickly.

We are on the verge of some very exciting times in bike racing. Hang on... and enjoy the ride!

[Lazy Boy]

...Oh.....merde...

I hope Aprilia kicks their asss with a 500cc 2 stroke twin.

[elephino]

But Aprilia aren't running in 500s next year at all as they are shelving the current bike and concentrating on a 4 stroke 4 cylinder (possibly a V4) bike. They have offered McWilliams a factory backed 250 ride (with his current mechanics too) or possibly the WSBK ride which may go to Waldmann instead.

Going along with what Redneck has said, the WSBK guys aren't that much slower at some tracks despite being heavier. Such as Philip Island, there is not a lot of difference.

And agreeing with Redneck again (twice in one post..amazing ), we are on the verge of something exciting. The only unanswered question, in my opinion, is will it be GP and SBK or GP only at the very top.