Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher: who's better?

[projectD]

no doubt it's senna.how i wish i can still watch him race nowadays.

[projectD]

schuey only became a champion after the great aryton senna died in 1994.

[projectD]

senna still tops the all-time poles.if only aryton senna was still alive today,michael schumacher wouldn't be a champion at all.

[dubby99]

Originally posted by projectD
schuey only became a champion after the great aryton senna died in 1994.

Senna has done things in a racecar that i will never forget.I believe Senna was put to the test by being team mate to Prost in 88 and beating him the best GP driver in the world at that time.

I just don't believe Shumi has be challaged the way Senna was IMHO and no one can ever change my faith in Senna.

Amen

[GTRMagic]

Schumi will be challenged next season, if Williams and BMW get their acts together..... no problems at all

[MacMan]

even though I admire everything MS has achieved in his career for me Senna will always be number one.

[rbs]

Senna always raced his teammates, he did not need a contract to stop his teammate from winning. He was happy to race anyone any where.

[raul_iulian]

It's hard to decide! Senna is Nr.1 because he was first... I think Schumi is a good driver who has a good car,... but Senna was just briliant! And Schumi has no Team mate, so he can not be compared!

[Tye]

Senna, without a doubt.

You can't even compare the two. One has the courage to accept a worthy team mate, and the other, well he runs from the challenge, and that is reflected in the contracts he has his team mates to sign. This is why I'll never rate him. Sorry if you don't agree, but that's just the way it is.

Gerald Donaldson, the Canadian journalist who covers the races for TSN, stated this year that Michael's team mate isn't allowed by contract to race his team mate.

These types of questions are quite comical to say the least, and that is because for anyone to do a proper comparison there must be a level playing field. This comparison is far from that.

Tye

[dubby99]

Originally posted by Tye

Gerald Donaldson, the Canadian journalist who covers the races for TSN, stated this year that Michael's team mate isn't allowed by contract to race his team mate.

This is an other reason why F1 has lost it's soul IMHO.

[Alpine Star]

Originally posted by Tye
Senna, without a doubt.

You can't even compare the two. One has the courage to accept a worthy team mate, and the other, well he runs from the challenge, and that is reflected in the contracts he has his team mates to sign. This is why I'll never rate him. Sorry if you don't agree, but that's just the way it is.

In your opinion, actualy, both contracts are pretty simulair, they state that both drivers accept the orders the team gives, that it is in favor of Michael, well, that is because the team obviously decided who is the better driver.

Originally posted by Tye

Gerald Donaldson, the Canadian journalist who covers the races for TSN, stated this year that Michael's team mate isn't allowed by contract to race his team mate.

As i stated, it doesn't say that, they have to accept the orders of the team, both Michael and Rubens have simulair contracts. The decision is however as you state it. Nevertheless the reporter didn't do his homework that well, cause both drivers have confirmed what is in the contract.

Originally posted by Tye

These types of questions are quite comical to say the least, and that is because for anyone to do a proper comparison there must be a level playing field. This comparison is far from that.

Tye

Personaly i don't like to compare the older drivers vs those driving today, cause most of the time the reason someone likes a driver is based on how someone is reflected and not based on reality... Senna is a legend, but mostly because he died at his peak, not because of everything he has done before he died.

No-one can predict what would have happened if Senna didn't died, we can only look at what he did do. I could point out simulairity between Michael and Senna, like Senna taking out Prost and Michael taking out Villeneuve... Senna punching Irvine in the pitlane and Michael trying to hit DC in the pitlane... but somehow i don't think that the Senna-minded people here are seeing simulairity in this.

Don't take this personal, but i think that for the sake of the drivers, you shouldn't compare the old legends with the becoming a legend, you can't do justice to the new without destroying a little of the old, besides, the old has been so much romantacised that any judgement could be verry blurred by how we think someone was....

[oziengineer]

From the time they were on track together, Senna was beaten by Schumacher. But I still regard Senna as not only better than Schumi, but better than all. Schumacher is not as charismatic as Senna and also is simply not in the same class. He has had it much easier than senna, who didn't get the benefit of a teammate who was willing to step aside.

[dubby99]

OOOOPS we all forgot to welcome projectD to 10 Tenths.

Welcome projectD it's a good thread you have started

[garcon]

Indeed. Welcome to ten tenths projectD!

What a question...

I honestly believe that in years to come, Michael Schumacher will be widely (not universally!) accepted as the greatest ever. OK, that will always be an entirely subjective accolade, and many will never be swayed from Fangio or Senna. It's just a shame that so many watching F1 now are unable to accept just how good Schumacher is.

However, for many of us who have seen Senna and Schumacher (but are too young to really remember the great drivers of previous eras), there is a fully understandable emotional attachment to Senna. He was the natural, it was in his blood, he drove almost subconciously, he lived and breathed racing and I think he knew he'd die racing.

We were lucky enough to enjoy Senna vs Prost (and I was always a Senna fan then!), it's a shame fate took away the chance to see more of Senna vs Schumacher.

[BSchneiderFan]

And who did Senna refuse to have as his team-mate at Lotus? Derek Warwick. Senna wouldn't accept the promising Warwick in the same team, so Johnny Dumfries got the drive instead.

In any event, Jim Clark was greater than either of them.

[Kempi]

You can't even compare the two.

One of the few reasonable sentences here, with the exception of two or three posts.
Drivers from different eras, and I consider Senna from a differen era than MS can't be compared. Period. There is no best ever. How can you say, there is a best ever when you have a Fangio, a Clark, a Rindt, a Senna, a Prost and a Schumacher who all shined in their respective eras but whose cars never were anything alike. Whose competition were totally different and whose set of rules were totally different.

The names I posted all together were the greatest drivers (imho) in F1, but you can't single out anyone.

[garcon]

It's absolutely true, you can't compare drivers from different eras, objectively. Of course, that'll never stop people from trying! It's always the way, in today's overhyped world, everything and everyone has to be the biggest ever, the smallest ever, the fastest ever or the greatest ever.

[luke]

They are both great I couldn't choose between the two.

But Michael's success is currently down to getting the right peple around him.

But Michael does tend to make mistakes under presure.
And after he has made a mistake, he userly tends to make more and therefore trip over drivers.
Japan last year and China this year are only a few examples.

[ASCII Man]

If Senna were alive after his accident, Michael wouldn't have been a double WDC after 1995, but i think he would have got the Ferrari drive and still be a 5 time WDC now.

I rate Senna's WDC's a lot higher than those of Michael, as Ayrton was up against semi-legends, not merely good drivers.

Anyway, i'd still rate Jim Clark to be better than both!

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by oziengineer
From the time they were on track together, Senna was beaten by Schumacher. But I still regard Senna as not only better than Schumi, but better than all. Schumacher is not as charismatic as Senna and also is simply not in the same class. He has had it much easier than senna, who didn't get the benefit of a teammate who was willing to step aside.

In both 1992 and 1993, Senna beat Schumacher on wins and podiums, even though in both seasons Schuamcher's team-mate matched or beat Senna's.


Reasons why I don't regard Schuamcher as highly as Senna:

• Schumacher still makes mistakes at crucial moments, especially when the pressure's on
• Schumacher's titles have all been without realistic opposition in the team (and, mroe often than not, subservient support - Senna's 3 titles were against Prost)
• Senna only played outside the rules once - Schumacher has done it routinely, with illegal cars, pre-empted punts, dodged penalties and team-orders fiascos
• Senna won his titles against a far superior field than Schumacher had

[luke]

I rest my case.

[garcon]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Reasons why I don't regard Schuamcher as highly as Senna:

• Schumacher still makes mistakes at crucial moments, especially when the pressure's on

He's human, but let's face it, it's a while since he's made a mistake that's ultimately cost him the WDC.

• Schumacher's titles have all been without realistic opposition in the team (and, mroe often than not, subservient support - Senna's 3 titles were against Prost)

Accepted, to a degree. Senna wasn't afraid to try and make sure things were stacked his way either, though.

• Senna only played outside the rules once - Schumacher has done it routinely, with illegal cars, pre-empted punts, dodged penalties and team-orders fiascos

Anyone know how to effectively clean coffee out of a laptop keyboard?!

• Senna won his titles against a far superior field than Schumacher had

Not sure about that - he had to fight Prost that's for sure, but were the rest really that much better than this year's grid?

[Knowlesy]

As excellent as Schumacher is, he isn't even in the same class as Ayrton and never will be.

Schumacher will go down as one of the greats. Senna is a legend.

Hard to believe I know, but I appreciate all the work Michael does together with Ferrari. His driving is also supremely good. But Senna he ain't.

Senna was unquestionably the fastest driver in his era.....an era that included Mansell, Prost, Rosberg, Piquet et al.......

Schumacher has question marks over him, even after winning seven championships. He is weak under pressure and has difficulty when back in the pack. And it's not so clear if he is essentially the quickest guy out there. Over a race, he probably is. But over a single lap, I'd rate Hakkinen, Montoya and Raikkonen above him.

Senna was quickest, race or qualifying against much stronger opposition. He took 65 pole positions, and that number would have eventually went into the hundreds.

And he sure as hell didn't rely on silly contracts to get him out of jail (although Schumacher doesn't do that as much as people say, if at all recently. But he has done before.)

Senna had just one weakness as far as i could see, and that was his move on Prost at Suzuka 1990. Other than that, he was the driver everyone did and still does aspire to.

RIP Ayrton.

[Alpine Star]

Bootsontheside:

In both 1992 and 1993, Senna beat Schumacher on wins and podiums, even though in both seasons Schuamcher's team-mate matched or beat Senna's.

in 1992 was Senna 8 years or so in Formula one, Schumacher in his second year, both drivers in their first year:
Senna drove 15 races, got a pointscore of 13, Michael drove 6 races and got 4 points. With just 6 races in the previous season, and Senna well over a 100, you compare driversability based on that year. If, in a fair comparison, we can only conclude that they were about equaly as good. Schumachers teammate in 1992 was Brundle, also a driver with over a 100 GP's in experience....

What did you forgot?
experience didn't won, Senna got 50 points in 1992, Schumacher got 53... he beat with just a half season experience Senna on points... It took another season for Senna to beat Michael...

Sounds to me, that if we look at it, Schumacher didn't do it so bad as you claim to remember. That is what i call selective memory...

[jj2728]

senna or schumacher.....that IS a tough one...people are going to be divided on this now and for many years to come....i rate them equally, both at the highest level, but i rate jim clark and gilles villeneuve even higher....