On track...weakspots of great drivers?

[Gt_R]

I watched the Silverstone race again this morning...and studied the way Montoya drove...and it struck me something.

It seems like Montoya has a particular tendency to brake overlimit at very tight corners/chicanes when being pressurised to defend. This could be hugely contributed to the perhaps poor handling of his car/tires...but the problem is there.

Why do i say so. Remember how Michael overtook Montoya in Australia this year? Into a tight corner, Michael took the racing line as Montoya chooses to take the defensive inside line. At the braking place, Montoya brakes late and his car slides from the apex to the outside of the circuit. Michael braked early and took that corner and manage to get down the accelerator earlier, thus enabling him to get past. At Silverstone, again we see Montoya braking slightly too late (for the tight corner at Club) at the inside line to slide from the inside corner across to the outer side...giving Michael opportunities to take stabs at him. All these could be traced back to Austria 2001, where the great fight between JPM and Michael ended when similarly, Michael tried to take the outside, but JPM entered the tight a little too late on brakes, and slide wide.

Poorly described, but i think some of you should get an idea of what i am driving at. Its not a critism, but a worry, considering that many circuits have similar corners which are actually possible overtaking places (ie a straight leading to tight corner/chicane). For example, the 1st corner of Melbourne, the 2nd corner of Austria, the abovementioned at Silverstone, and also the very tight hairpin at France GP...to mention a few more realistic examples (the latter being a very common ground for such error to be capitalised by a chasing driver).

Following this, i also noticed jacques had a tendency to overbrake into tight corners, not during defensive, but when attempting to overtake...over-ambitious on the brakes and hence often collecting the car in front. Example? Austria 2002, he tried to overtake and had a touch with someone, and Canada 2000, where he collected Ralf...to mention a few off my head.

Every great driver has a couple of weakspot. Even Michael has them (ie make unnessary mistakes on the circuit eg when pressurising Nurburgring 2002 or eg out alone at Indy 2000). But for now, lets just take a look at 2 of the more 'dramatic' drivers who happens to be from CART.

Btw, what other driving niggles do other good drivers suffer on a more regular basis (not a one-off)?

[Lee Janotta]

Hmm... Villeneuve, when he was driving at his limit back in the day, he had a tendancy to get the rear end too loose, especially when curb-hopping. He's got the best car control of anyone in F1 today, but it did bite him a few times. Most of his problems are psychological. Like Montoya, he does seem faster chasing than leading. Gives him something to focus on. Some drivers, when they're leading, get too worried about making the most of a clear track, and end up making dumb mistakes. Or they watch their mirrors too closely, worrying about getting passed, when really, it's up to them to determine the race pace... The guy behind, even Schumacher, runs the same risk of damage is a pass as they do.

Ralf, of course, is deathly afraid of passing. He's happy just turning constistent lap times, finishing in the points, collecting his check and going home.

[Gt_R]

"Ralf, of course, is deathly afraid of passing."

[DavidStHubbins]

Actually if u watch - Ralf brakes later than most of the grid. Later than Juan. I think Juan carries more speed though.

Its interesting to see how Ralf has changed over the years. When he first came into F1 he was lairier than JPM and very spectacular. He often bounced off other cars and barriers etc and was an aggressive passer. I used to love watching him drive but over the last few years he has really chilled and doesnt seem aggressive anymore. I think a lot of it has to do with his formative years in F1 when he was critisized for all his crashes etc. And he seemed to be shaken up by 9/11 too and his baby and wife. I think Ralf has become a softie now! Especially with the glasses...

[Sato san]

i Think Ralf changed from the agressive racer we used to know to what he is today when he wouldnt go head to head with his brother . Stuff like that must pray on his mind ???

[Jordi]

Curious, Lee, but Montoya in CART often made more mistakes when chasing than when leading...

As for Jacques, he definetely made more mistakes when he was in Williams than now. He's a far better driver now, and he did not put a wheel wrong under the rain in Silverstone.

[Speed]

Tyres make a big difference, don´t you think ?. That´s one of the problems on this equation.
Any time Montoya had been chased by MS, his tyres don´t come up, and the guy has to make miracles to content Ferrari´s attacks.

Don´t worry, next year Michelin will be competitive (Hope so...)

[Lee Janotta]

Yes, Juan used to make more mistakes chasing. He's matured quite a bit since the start of last season. But in CART, he typically didn't have a 4-time World Champion is a vastly superior car breathing down his neck, hence the mistakes while leading, especially at Melbourne... He's using up his front tires very quickly trying to keep ahead of Schumacher, which plays into M$'s hands perfectly. He really can't pass Montoya unless the Columbian makes a mistake, and Juan needs to learn that, so he can start to pace himself more at the start, keep the lap times where he wants them, and possibly get Michael a bit hot under the collar.

[Jukebox]

I don't have to say anything further about Montoya, he's as careless as ever when defending his position. Michael is a bit careless when he's trying to keep pace with someone infront of him and trying to equal the speed as so not to look that he's off pace. Both times when he's behind Ruben and spunned.

[Jack racer]

I think you's are reading into this to much. when you are driving defence that is what you do if you don't the door is wide open. When you late brake you also stuff the other persons line and they loose there speed too. I monty hadn't late braked tgf would have stuck his nose on the line and blocked him out or lost his nose.

[BD]

I think Austrlalia said it all about Montoya and M.Schumacher. Montoya's pass of Schumacher was brutal. When I first watched it I thought "Hot damn, he's got big balls". Michaels pass of Montoya was completely different. It was calculated, smooth, and graceful. Montoya had little choice. He went wide to block the inside of the next corner. A good move really. But Schumacher braked early, thus got on the gas sooner and beat him on the outside accelerating out of the corner.
Two different styles, both exciting to watch.
Certain camera angles give you a good idea of different styles and ability. A good one is when the cars are coming toward the camera and turn sharply. Both Schumachers turn very suddenly. Some drivers like Barrichello gradually turn in. Sometimes M.Schumacher will give it a very, very quick flick the opposite direction of the turn, right before turn-in. I presume this is to load the suspension.

[Jukebox]

Originally posted by Jack racer
I think you's are reading into this to much. when you are driving defence that is what you do if you don't the door is wide open. When you late brake you also stuff the other persons line and they loose there speed too. I monty hadn't late braked tgf would have stuck his nose on the line and blocked him out or lost his nose.

There are ways of defending your line as to not srewing up..perfect example when he screwed DC by both car having to DNF.

When clearly you don't have the speed to defend and the overtaking are clearly faster and ahead, be a gentleman and move over.

[Dino IV]

Most common weakspots are mental ones.
That's where TGF's strength is and before long he suffered less from that than anyone else. Now Montoya has come to F1, TGF has serious competition in that respect. On top of that, given TGF's cars over the past decades he's had the least mental challenge. Protecting oneself for that is also very important. Compare that to i.e. Trulli where cars have failed on him at all the important moments, it's easy to say for otsiders that's 'character-building' or something, but in reality it's a very serious issue to cope with things like that and it will break you down unavoidingly if it persists long enough.

Trulli is a good example in that respect, as the Nurburgring GP showed. He ran a first stint close to Button, turning away the same laptimes. Then he made an overtaking mistake at the first corner, ran wide, had to turn around and continued, but he knew very well it was his mistake and it set him on fire - mentally speaking. Suddenly he lifted his driving to a higher level, almost unreal. Although he was on the same strategy as Button, he suddenly began lapping awesomely fast and in half a dozen of laps overtook anyone whom he lost his place to with his mistake. Suddenly he was both superfast and overtaking brilliantly leaving the others no chance at all. It was surprising that this mental 'uproar' ended when he found himself behind Button again. It was over as sudden as it came up and never returned that GP. It shows clearly what mental strength really means performance-wise.

Blank out - one way or the other - mental aspects and the driver's table would look totally different in the various aspects. That too shows how important the mental issues are.

[neilap]

JPM knew he would not be able to hold off MS. He was just hoping for a miracle. Him braking that late could have forces MS into an unlikely mistake, one never knows. It is obvious he is a fighter even when he knows he cant win. He was driving the Williams the way he would have a Ferrari. It was not going to happen. MS was braking just as late as JPM its just the his package was that much better. I don't feel it was a mistake that caused the pass. JPM looked like he wanted to prevent the pass at all costs. Under acceleration is where MS passed him because his car hooked up way better than JPM's. I downloaded the overhead view and it looked obvious to me. I think what makes JPM weak is exactly what makes him so good, his aggression. RS knew he had nothing for MS so he let him by. When JPM first entered F1 he said he is not in F1 to let people pass him, the is there to race. That is what he does.
Drivers like Massa, Sato, JV all share this instinct. GF, RS, OP seem to race a little less on the edge. That driving style is cool too but just not as exciting, especially if there is no passing involved.

[Jordi]

Originally posted by Jukebox


There are ways of defending your line as to not srewing up..perfect example when he screwed DC by both car having to DNF.

When clearly you don't have the speed to defend and the overtaking are clearly faster and ahead, be a gentleman and move over.

I think JPM's spin was a little bit contributed by that elevation change in the apex.

But people is here to race, and if someone is faster than you but it's battling for position, you should do everything but crashing out to preserve your position.
I don't think anyone will be a gentleman if they are in the lead. Plus, if he's faster, he should be able to pass you easily, not because he's faster you have to let him thru.

[Speed]

Originally posted by neilap
MS was braking just as late as JPM its just the his package was that much better. I don't feel it was a mistake that caused the pass.

Agree.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by Jukebox
I don't have to say anything further about Montoya, he's as careless as ever when defending his position.

Hate to admit it, but youre right.

Too many examples are proving your point.

[Damon]

On the silverstone thing GT_R; Montoya may have looked untidy but in the two laps when it was wet and everyone was still on slicks (i.e. near level playing field) Montoya went 5 seconds a lap quicker than schu. Montoya has shown that it doesn't really matter how it looks just so long as its quick.

[neilap]

I almost want to see the Williams become good as much as I want Honda to start winning. I want to see JPM beat MS consistently on a level playing field. He is younger so it will be said that MS was past his peak if this battle takes too long. Any driver that lets another driver pass him because he thinks he wont win the fight is a punk! Racing is about people competing towards a similar goal. Some drivers are good drivers some are good racers. Racers will make more mistakes but they will also win more championships. In Europe JPM made an obvious mistake. I dont blame him for defending its just that it is his desire to win and never give up that caused the accident. If JPM had a better car he would not even had been in that position.

[Gt_R]

Oh damon, don't take me wrong...because i don't really care if his laps are untidy as long as he is fast...which he really his. What i'm highlighting is how often under the pressure of being overtaken, often worsened by poor tires, he would defend his position into a tight corner in a particular way(braking and sliding wide, letting the guy behind to brake early, grab the apex and outaccelerate), thus, making it easy for any drivers who attempt to pass to know where this "weakness" is and can foresee what to do. Which makes JPM vulnerable.

Of course, i would never expect him to give way to the guy behind "just because that guy is faster" (remember i actually cheered Enrique for holding up DC at Monaco last year)... he should fight for his place...but the exact way which he lost positions... its like his opponents "having answers to an exam".

[freud]

I would say that the biggest weakness in a driver is his inability to set up the car correctly hence not utlilizing his full potential. A few examples that come up to mind are Heinz Herald Frentzen, Jean Alesi, Jacques Villeneuve and Jarno Trulli.

[Adam43]

Frentzen has had his moments when it comes to setting up the car, although I think these have been later in his career. He managed to sort the Prost last year (to a certain extent), although he did this by trying something radical. He has also managed to get the Arrows set-up well - even though he has had limited testing in it.

[Jordi]

Frentzen's problem is not not being able to set up the car. It's that he needs a certain atmosphere to be able to work on the car... that was apparently the problem at Jordan and at Williams.

[neilap]

A few examples that come up to mind are Heinz Herald Frentzen, Jean Alesi, Jacques Villeneuve and Jarno Trulli

I agree 100% with the JV comment