Ethanol

[macdaddy]

WASHINGTON (AP) - The ethanol industry is trying to popularize the corn-based fuel by getting it into racing cars - specifically those at the Indianapolis 500.

Ethanol's backers want the Indy Racing League to replace the natural gas-made methanol used on the circuit since the 1970s.

"It's like those commercials where the race car driver says, `I use this particular type of oil in my own car.' What does that tell people?" said Sen. Jim Talent, R-Mo. "The key here is advertising and further acceptance of ethanol."

Talent belongs to the Senate Biofuels Caucus, which is dedicated to increasing ethanol use. Lawmakers have written an energy bill that would double ethanol's use in gasoline to 5 billion gallons a year by 2012. The legislation, however, is stalled over how to continue ethanol's current tax breaks.

The caucus wrote Tony George, president of Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the IRL, urging him to consider ethanol. IRL officials are open to the idea - if ethanol makers are willing to pay.

"If we had a fuel sponsor who wanted to be involved in advertising ethanol and wanted to be involved in our series, we would give it serious consideration," said Fred Nation, executive vice president of communications for the Speedway, which owns the league.

The switch for Indy cars would be more a symbolic gesture than a new market. IRL races, including the Indianapolis 500, use fewer than 60,000 gallons of methanol each year. Because of auto racing's popularity, it's just the symbol ethanol producers want.

"It's the great American race, and we're the great American fuel, so it seems like we ought to be able to work something out," said Monte Shaw, a spokesman for the Renewable Fuels Association.

The IRL is in the heart of corn country. Besides Indiana, other top ethanol-producing states are Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota, Missouri, Kansas, Wisconsin and Tennessee.

Of course, competing methanol producers oppose switching fuels.

"Methanol has proven to be a highly effective and safe racing fuel, and it also has been very cost effective for the Indy Racing league," said Gregory Dolan, vice president of communications and policy.

[marcus]

well should they or shouldnt they ?

theres been a tonne of debate about Ethanol here in Australia even to the extent know service stations have to state on their pumps how much content is in it.

I dont know enough about it to comment at this stage.

[gttouring]

what is the problem with pushing methanol as THE fuel of the future? Indy and Champcars do very well on it.

[macdaddy]

gttouring, I'm not the one best-educated to try to answer you, but I might suspect:
1) Dangerously low flashpoint.
2) Less economical (miles-per-gallon, don't know about cost).
3) Invisible flame is quite dangerous to the uneducated.

As far as ethanol (no "m") is concerned, I know that a growing number of Canadian fuel suppliers are blending it into their fuels. And I've never noticed a difference, regardless of the ratio.

Five years ago they built an ethanol plant here in my hometown. (I live in "corn country"). They've expanded it twice already.

[macdaddy]

Don't know how he fared, but it can be done!

http://www.comalc.com/english/chatha...ar/corncar.htm

[climb]

methanol-vs ethanol is a problem not strictly related to racing, indeed, because the ethanol producers want to get it into the motorsport only as a way to promote it in the common market.
IMO it'd be good because it would help solving the huge problem of agriculture crisis.
Certainly it would get the production prices of corn higher, and, maybe, make some state subsidies no more necessary to grant farmers' survival.
As you can notice, nothing to see with racing

[kingfloopy]

I live in Iowa in the U.S. Every gas station here has ethanol blendedc fuel here at the pumps. It's pretty good stuff in street cars and is actually cheaper at the pumps here despite the higher octane rating it has. I know it generally burns hotter than non-ethanol fuel, we don't use it in lawn mower engines because of this. In street cars it also helps reduce water in the gas and resist gas line freeze like gas line antifreeze does. The racing deal would be a pretty good promotion for the ethanol and help boost its use. It also seems to be the "fuel of the future" as far as the government is concerned in the U.S. I'm not the greatest chemist, but I think that ethanol and methanol are very close in compostion so adaptation on the cars would be easy.


J.D.

[rush1]

"If we had a fuel sponsor who wanted to be involved in advertising ethanol and wanted to be involved in our series, we would give it serious consideration"

So if an ethanol producer is willing to pony up more cash than any methanol producer you can look for it to happen. As long as it complies with all safety regulations of course.

[macdaddy]

I'd like to see it happen. Especially in the "real world" and passenger vehicles. Ethanol could significantly reduce our dependance upon OPEC. And the way the world is today, that can only be a good thing.

[rush1]

Originally posted by macdaddy
I'd like to see it happen. Especially in the "real world" and passenger vehicles. Ethanol could significantly reduce our dependance upon OPEC. And the way the world is today, that can only be a good thing.

Something we can agree on as well. And if we can agree on something that can only be a good thing

[Snrub]

Seeing as E85 appears to be pretty viable and infact works in many common vehicles right now. Why shouldn't they market ethanol?

[thebear]

Originally posted by Snrub
Seeing as E85 appears to be pretty viable and infact works in many common vehicles right now. Why shouldn't they market ethanol?

When it was first proposed (~10 years ago) there was a valid concern about long term durability of fuel system componets (gaskets/hoses). :confused: Obviously the materials engineers have forseen the problems and hopefully worked around them.

[evo]

If they want to slow the cars down, this might be a good idea. I'm sure an ethanol powered motor of the same displacement wouldn't make as much power as the current spec.

[kingfloopy]

One drawback I can see is that a lot of the ethanol producers (at least around here) are small co-ops owned by farmers. This could create some problems with organizing a central organization to control the marketing of ethanol and advertising in relation to racing. Or it could allow too much control by larger companies possibly reducing benefits to the small companies.

J.D.

[Mackmot]

They dont need to slow the cars down with the engine. The engine is not powerful enough which is why the teams are running cars with zero downforce. A more powerful engine and some rules on wing angles etc would make the car much safer.

[Bob Riebe]

In the nineties, several cars ran ethanol, it was part of a push to get ethanol better recongnization.
Gordon Johncock, whose lively hood was farming, besides racing, came and ran several years just for that reason.
I do not know how he did, but there is little to zero power difference.
One advantage to ethanol is its less corrosive nature.
Bob

[dirtfan]

I've been looking on the internet to try and find something about the difference between the two alcohols, but it seems everybody has an axe to grind, and impartial information is almost impossible to find. The first two chapters of this
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_...manual1-2.html
give some info.
Also, most methanol is made from methane (natural gas, although cow farts would probably work too), and ethanol is made from stuff that's normally used to feed pigs and people.
Hitler caused a famine in Germany when he used the potato crop to make V2 fuel. If all the surplus corn were used to make fuel, what would happen if there were a bad crop year, would we drive or eat?
Ethanol has a stochiometric ratio of 9:1 as opposed to methanol's 6.5:1, so the mileage would be better, but the total heat of vaporization is only about half, so the fuel/air charge cooling would be less. I think this is why it's usually stated that ethanol has only about 85% of methanol's power.
It's been about 50 years since I last flunked organic chem, so if somebody has a better take on this, please feel free to join in.

[macdaddy]

Bob... In what series did several cars run ethanol in the 90's? I certainly don't remember anything but methanol being used in CART/IRL during that time period.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by macdaddy
Bob... In what series did several cars run ethanol in the 90's? I certainly don't remember anything but methanol being used in CART/IRL during that time period.

It probably was at Indy only, though I would not say that they did not try some other races.
There were articles in some farm magazines back then that explained what they wanted to do.
It probably was the early nineties as it was before Indy and CART separated.

[Edgar Jessop]

Well er, "corn-based ethanol producers" created NASCAR didn't they?

[dirtfan]

Actually, Jack Daniels Cup sounds better than Nextel Cup, doesn't it?

[edu]

Ethanol is alcool ethylic, the same of beer

The flames are visible.

Cars moved with ethanol had benn 80% of the brazilian market in 80's.

[macdaddy]

Don't go telling people that it's the same as beer!
The membership will start to mysteriously decline!