Dallara vs. G-Force: Some Observations form Sunday

[Tim Northcutt]

As I watche dthe race from my seat on Sunday, and thus saw the two chasses in person in race conditions, a couple of observations:

1. The Dallara runs superbly in clean air, or when there is enough space between it and the car it trails that the turbulence doesn't impact its performance too much, but,

2. In traffic, the G-Force seems much more stable and solid, and seemed to have an easier time passing in traffic situations...by half-way through the race, I figured that a G-Force would ultimately win on Sunday for that reason...and it is no coincidence that 4 of the top 6 finishers were G-Force Chassis....

3. Haven't seen the specifics on the engines, but Toyota looks like it is pulling a few more horsepower than the Honda, and Chevy isn't in the ballpark....Hondas stayed with Toyotas via a draft, but when a Honda let a Toyota, the Toyota slowly made up ground....it also did not surprise me that so many Toyota-powered cars finished in the top ten Sunday....

Your thoughts????

[Inside_Info]

From what I've read it seems to have been a pretty even contest between the two chassis manufacturers...

At the start of the season G-Force were reckoned to have the edge on the Superspeedways and Dallara on the short tracks...

Dallara had the benefit of greater numbers at Indy, which makes the G-Force finishes even more impressive...

Its a shame there isn't a 3rd or 4th manufacturer out there... what was TG thinking of giving the 3rd contract to Falcon instead of Lola...

[evo]

He was thinking he didn't want a CART chassis builder coming in a stinking up the show. Sad, but true.

[gttouring]

Yup falcon, Lola they should be all in the game, the g force not only looks more like an Indy car should, that little shnoz the Dallara has yuck- but they looked better all around, Penske bought them so there is something special there...Toyota- did anyone think another could make it against a Penske-toyota?

[racer69]

Originally posted by evo
He was thinking he didn't want a CART chassis builder coming in a stinking up the show. Sad, but true.

Wasn't it to stop Lola taking it's IRL chassis to CART, which was the plan of CART's at that stage?

[climb]

Originally posted by Inside_Info
From what I've read it seems to have been a pretty even contest between the two chassis manufacturers...

At the start of the season G-Force were reckoned to have the edge on the Superspeedways and Dallara on the short tracks...

Dallara had the benefit of greater numbers at Indy, which makes the G-Force finishes even more impressive...

Its a shame there isn't a 3rd or 4th manufacturer out there... what was TG thinking of giving the 3rd contract to Falcon instead of Lola...

The two chassis proved even, agree with you, but the numbers you tlak about refer mostly to Chevy powered cars, that , with the exception of impressive Sam Hornish, never were candidate to win.If it wasn't for the final accident with Wheldon, chassis balance would have been different.
Ultimately, the choice to give GFoprce a chance by Penske, proved substancially useless; the result would have been the same if Gil drove a Dallara

[Tim Northcutt]

The two chassis do seem to be fairly equal, but I just noticed from being there that as a whole, the G-Force seemed to be more effective in traffic than the Dallara and a little more stable when it got deep into the draft of a car in front of it......the Dallaras would run well in clean air, but didn't seem to have the grip when they got closer to the car in front of them...

In the final laps, Helio picked up ground on Gil when he ducked lower to get cleaner air, but as he drew up, it was like he was hitting a wall that he couldn't get through....and I saw many examples of that throughout the race, especially as I saw teams working for position down the backstretch and into turn three....

The fact that they are fairly equal overall would be indicated by Penske and Foyt buying both chassis (Dare was in a G-Force on Sunday),

I obviously have not hard data to back it up, but that was my overall observation of the two chassis' performances in traffic vs. clean air on Sunday......when I watched the replay of the telecast in Indy that night, it did not seem as evident on TV as it did in person, beacuse Tv didn't show as much of the field in action during the course of the race...

For whatever it is worth...

[climb]

I watched the race on TV, and the only sensation i could have is that without that lapping mistake Gil wouldn't be able to pass Helio, as well as Helio could pass Schecketer only at the pits.
My final sensations: Gil would have won same way on a Dallara, and without that mistake, Helio would have won on a GForce

[Tim Northcutt]

From my perspective, the Dallara, when it was out in front, was a little better than the G-Force when it had clean air.....but the G-Force just seemed to run better in traffic...at least that is the way it seemed...

The Andretti-Green cars were really fast when they led, but had trouble passing and moving up through the field when they got behind people....Robby Gordon even said that when he was interviewed right before he took off for Charlotte.....

Helio getting held up was what ultimately cost him, because Gil had the chance to make the pass and once he got there, helio could close the gap, but couldn't get around him....

I do agree that if the drivers would have swithced chassis, the results probably wouldn't have changed...

[evo]

Well, I was looking at photos from the 500 on Motorsport.com, and I think we're all forgeting the most important thing here. The Dallara is UGLY! As far as I can tell, the two cars a very similar as to how good they are, but when you look at the G-Force, that's a sweet looking racing car. The Dallara just looks... odd.

But of course, that's just one man's opinion. G-Force all the way!

[climb]

GForce has always been better-looking than Dallara, but, you know, it hasn't been that important in the past, when the Dallara where anyways faster on every kind of oval.
My impression is that this year the Dallara look particularly foused on downforce, whereas the GForce look lighter.
This maybe explains why the Dallaras dominated the qualifications: twas very windy, and GForce had to put the wings more inclined, whilst Dallara didn't need.
And maybe explains why Dallara are still way faster on the short-oval.
GForce on the contrary catched up the gap on the speedways.

[Tim Northcutt]

Before we get locked into the Dallaras on short tracks and G-Force Superspeedway idea, let's take a good look at this season thus far....


Homestead -- 6 degree banks on a 1.5 mile oval...G-Force wins the race...really only one racing line on this circuit, which makes passing in traffic a premium commodity.....

Phoenix -- 1 mile oval with 11 degree banks in 1 & 2 and 9 degree banking in 3 & 4....Phoenix claimed at one time to be the "World's fastest One Mile Oval" and it really has two racing grooves...drivers can run an outside line in both corners, especially 1 & 2, and hold their speed...dominated by a Dallara....and from watching it, Kanaan used both lines....

Motegi -- 1.5 mile oval with 10 degree banks...Dallara won by default after late race crach between a G-Force and Dallara that were racing side-by-side...pretty equal for both chassis...1 and a half racing lines...some drove on the line, and others ran higher in the groove, but not really two distinct racing lines there....

Indy -- 2.5 mi. oval with 9 degree banks...only one real racing line through the corners....again, traffic and turbulence are always an issue here, but the long straights are a new factor into the equation...G-Force is the winner with 4 of the top 6 places....

I still think it is the "clean air vs. traffic" issue based on the above....G-Force won two places where there is one racing line and the Dallara won where more than one line exists and thus more opportunities to choose lean air without losing speed or efficiency..

We'll know more after Texas, Michigan and maybe Pike's Peak...

High banked tracks with various racing lines available for the drivers
and a variety of lengths for the tracks....at least we'll be able to make the "short tracks vs. super speedway" assessment....

[Tim Northcutt]

Notes to Update this Thread:

G-Forces ran strong in Quals, which would indicate the G-Force is a super speedway chassis, but with the exception of Scheckter, the Dallaras dominated the racing itself....

I still say that the Dallara runs its best in clean air...they seemed to hit an invisible wall once they got up unde the wing of a car to pass, but when they slipped out in lean air, they could make the moves they needed to make....

Pike's Peak will give us a better contrast, a 1-miler with 10 degree banks....if G-Force wins there, like they did at Homestead, we can compare overal traks and results with more authority...

[Tim Northcutt]

And the results are in...

G-Force won at Homestead and Pike's Peak...but both led about the same amount of laps yesterday....

Thus far, I think my theory noted above holds up....but we'll see as the year goes on...

[climb]

Tim,
what about Sam Hornish impressive race at Pikes?
He drove a Dallara and catched up many positions, with a Chevy engine and never being in clean air.
Sam is a standout, ok, but don't you think this fact kinda denies your (anyway interesting) theory?

[Tim Northcutt]

They set up the car to run heavy downforce so that Sam could run flat out all around (others couldn't)

He did run a higher line as well with that set-up...

BTW...Sam tested the Cosworth at Indy yesterday, but I have no results from it...
I'll dig and post everyone..

[Tim Northcutt]

Chassis wins

Panoz G-Force - 4 wins (Homestead, Indianapolis, Pikes Peak, Richmond)
Dallara - 4 wins (Phoenix, Motegi, Texas, Kansas)

These above are courtesy of DownForce in his Season Summary that he posted after the Kansas race....

When you look at those tracks and what chassis are einning where, my theory holds up quite well so far....

[climb]

Why, Tim?
both chassis won on both short ovals (Phoenix, Richmond) and superspeedways (Texas, Homestead).
I can't find a common feature linking the circuits the two chassis won in.
The fact is that a race result is often influenced by casual facts, firstly yellow flags.

[Tim Northcutt]

Look at the banking of those tracks and the subsequent racing lines that they offer...

Richomond is a short, short, short track that requires solid handling in traffic and excellent downforce to run well there...

Phoenix is a very fast 1-mile oval with 10-12 degree banking and it has two solid racing lines....

Homestead has undergone extensive renovation to make the banking steeper in the corners since the IRL ran there at the beginning of the season because both IRL and NASCAR racing has been one racing line only...one...on 6 degree banks...and being solid in traffic has always been a prime consideration at that track, regardless of the racing series....Homestead HAS NOT ever been considered a "Superspeedway"...the only one mile oval that is flatter is Milwaukee....

Pike's Peak has generally been a one-line only track, but Sam Hornish and Panther Racing (in order to be competitive there) dialed in a ton of downforce so that Sam could run a higher line and keep his foot on the floor as much as possible to make up for the Chevy's lack of horespower...they were a definite exception to the rule...track position has always been the key at Pike's Peak, because it is difficult to pass there...

My Indy observations started this thread....saw that one with my own eyes....the G-Forece was the better chassis in race conditions and in traffic...period....no comparison between the two...the G-Force was the superior chassis in race conditions there...

Panoz-G-Force is supposed to be the "superspeedway" chassis, but Dallara won on the higher banks in Texas, Kansas, and Motegi, and Phoenix, a fast one-miler with two racing lines also brought victory for Dallara...they could run in clean air and pick their racing lines...they had options....

Dallara is supposed to be the "Handling Track" chassis, but Panoz won at the flatter ovals with less banking that have one to one & 1/2 racing lines....Homestead, Pike's Peak, Richmond, and Indy (yes, Indy is considered a "superspeedway" for IRL cars, but I can tell you from many years out there that on race day, you better be able to run well in traffic if you hope to do well...it's is the only way you can pass there with the racing line being so precise...)

You're entitled to your opinion, but I feel I've laid out a pretty specific case here based on race results and the configurations of the respective racing circuits...

Your thoughts????