The MGB

**Peter Mallett** · 7 Jun 2005, 16:40 (Ref:1322479)

I know its a tart's car and anybody with any feeling would drive a Lotus!

Well maybe but it occurred to me that whilst its a bit of a plugger rather than an out and out sprinter the car does have some merits take a look here and you'll see that in its day it could hold its head up with the best of them. Of course that result came as Le Mans was changing from pure road sports cars to a more "supercar" type of car hence the GT40 and others on the entry list.

In those days they ran a 3 bearing crank and AFAIK the App K regs say they have to do so now. That being so and with all the new materials available to them why don't they appear to do so well in competiton now?

Presumably they can run the lightweight bodywork and the Dellorto or Weber carb. Yet cars that couldn't keep up then seem to run away.

Just a thought but why is it?

**John Turner** · 7 Jun 2005, 19:11 (Ref:1322626)

Well, Peter, more years ago than I care to remember, I had an early 3 bearing crank 'B' with an HRG Derrington crossflow head and fast road cam. It was fitted with a rare Heron GTB hardtop which made it look like a proper GT car. It wasn't a tarts car then and went as well as it looked. The only sports car on the road that I wasn't prepared to take on was the Elan, which, of course, was pretty much the small to medium sports car benchmark, at the time.

You are right, too, the MGB has a pretty fair racing pedigree and can hold its head up. Can't think why a car built the way you describe wouldn't provided some competitive fun.

Al Weyman · 7 Jun 2005, 21:21 (Ref:1322725)

2 Seater Austin Cambridge is'nt it? Awful suspension for a sports car, siamesed head (I think) I had them in the past and Elans and the Elan would leave it for dead then and will now. Someone I grew up with on my estate when I was a kid lost his life in one because of the tendency to occilate when driven over a series of bumps with those aweful lever shockers on the front. The car just bounced off the road and took him iinto a tree and he died as a result. I knew exactly how it happen as I was a mechanic at the time and had the same thing happen to me when I was testing one but managed to keep it under control, horrible car.

**Peter Mallett** · 8 Jun 2005, 04:56 (Ref:1322896)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

2 Seater Austin Cambridge is'nt it? Awful suspension for a sports car, siamesed head (I think) I had them in the past and Elans and the Elan would leave it for dead then and will now. Someone I grew up with on my estate when I was a kid lost his life in one because of the tendency to occilate when driven over a series of bumps with those aweful lever shockers on the front. The car just bounced off the road and took him iinto a tree and he died as a result. I knew exactly how it happen as I was a mechanic at the time and had the same thing happen to me when I was testing one but managed to keep it under control, horrible car.

Point one. No siamesed head you are thinking of the A series engine.

Point 2. Never heard the oscillation story before. Also having driven one for many years I've never experienced it either. You sure you aren't thinking of the Truimph Spitfire?

Anyway the point is well made that the Elan was the benchmark but it was low volume and when it came to long distance racing tended to fade away. That really was my point the Elans in longer races now tend to leave the B behind. Totally the opposite to my understanding of the contemporary case.

simon drabble · 8 Jun 2005, 06:17 (Ref:1322907)

I think its fair to say that there period success was in long distance events rather than the sprints - if you look at the longer distance events now (Spa 6 Hour, Carol Spagg's Gentlemen Drivers, Cloth Cap etc.. ) they are still popular as they are bullet proof (apart from the one I raced at Pau last year as the second driver and the rear diff seal went resulting in me parking it backwards in a barrier and causing the Gentlemen Drivers race to be red flagged early ;-( ) - Whether you can run them ali like the works cars depends on your appetite for authenticity - the non works were all steel whic would make them heavy relative to an Elan or TVR Grantura

**John Turner** · 8 Jun 2005, 07:21 (Ref:1322932)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Point 2. Never heard the oscillation story before. Also having driven one for many years I've never experienced it either. You sure you aren't thinking of the Truimph Spitfire?

Anyway the point is well made that the Elan was the benchmark but it was low volume and when it came to long distance racing tended to fade away. That really was my point the Elans in longer races now tend to leave the B behind. Totally the opposite to my understanding of the contemporary case.

I've never come across this oscillation issue before either. It was a long time ago when I drove mine but do not recall any such problems. I was going to say that maybe I didn't drive it quickly enough, but on reflection that's not true; I was young then (yes, really!) and tended to press on, probably too much so! As you say, the Spitfire rear suspension on the other hand, was distinctly dodgy. I never owned one, but did have one of the early Vitesse Sixes with the same set up. Whenever I wanted to go quickly in that, I made sure I had two heavy mates sitting in the back seat to help it sit down!!

I think the point about Elans these days is that, in preparation, reliability is built into them, not something that we associated with them when they were being manufactured. So whilst they were then quicker, lighter and better handling than a 'B', you can add that they are now (almost?) as reliable with the inevitable consequences in enduros.

Formula 5000 · 8 Jun 2005, 07:39 (Ref:1322938)

The MG generally and especially the B is raced extensively in Australia. Even races for B's alone. Whilst the the high performers are the rover V8 5.0l versions the ordinary 4 cylinder 3 bearing goes well.
For comparison times from Philip Island classic.
Iso Grifo with Chev v8 1:53
Corvette 5.5l 1:54
Ferrari GTC 4 1:58
Carrera 2.7 1:58
few others then
MGB 1.8 1:59
Pantera, Carrera etc
another B 2:00
Elan 2:02
Elan 2:05
MG Midget 2:05
So as Mr Mallet says the B's do very well in Australia. I know the above figures show different drivers and differing states of tune but noneheless the show up in there 100's and do well.

In my collection I have one as well as a Capri. The Capri every time.

**Peter Mallett** · 8 Jun 2005, 07:44 (Ref:1322940)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formula 5000

In my collection I have one as well as a Capri. The Capri every time.

Coincidence? Although I'd also like to race a "B".

gadgit · 8 Jun 2005, 08:31 (Ref:1322969)

With the right driver, the thing can shift!!

Don't be fooled into thinking its a slow car, its not. You have to keep it on the boil and even with those leaf springs its not slow round a reack.

I've got a test somewhere of most of the top classic sports cars and it was quicker getting round the track than an E type due to the handling.

Yes before you all say it, the E type was not the greatest handling car but would you think the humble MGB would get round quicker ?

Al Weyman · 8 Jun 2005, 19:46 (Ref:1323428)

E-Type that was another horror round corners, sort of wallowed, I had one out to 135mph on test once and frightened the life out of me. No I was not thinking of the awful Spitfire either with the positive camber tuck under rear suspension (did someone really sit down with a clean sheet of paper and design the abonination) or the TR4 (I was driving along in one of those once and the rear wheel flew off!). No I was talking about the B but maybe the front shockers were shot on reflection. It was a long time ago in the 70's and the old memory fades.

blackhands · 8 Jun 2005, 20:11 (Ref:1323445)

The MGB was never designed as a performance car - it was more of a "boulevard cruiser" or tourer. However as a long distance racer it was reasonably successful, mainly due to its reliability.

1963: 12th LeMans
1964: 17th Sebring 12 hrs; 19th Le Mans
1965: 25th Sebring; 1st Guards 1000 Brands; 11th LeMans
1966: Sebring 3rd in GT category; 9th Targa Florio; 3rd Brands 500;
1st in GT Category Spa 1000km; 12th Monthlhery 1000km.
1967: 11th Sebring 12hrs; 9th Targa Florio
1968: 11th Sebring 12hrs; 12th Targa Florio
1969: 15th Sebring 12 hrs.

midgetman · 8 Jun 2005, 21:37 (Ref:1323514)

I used to race a couple of Bs in the early 80s, and they were indeed bullet-proof. Blackhands forgot the Marathon de la Route - 72 hours round the Nordschleife I think? But I may be wrong. The reference books are downstairs and I can't face getting up and looking.

Drove one again recently and realised how ponderous they are. Even so, Al Weyman's description sounds a bit more like knackered car than MGB specific. I remember them being safe to drive, and solid if you hit anything. Pretty predictable too, even in the wet, but didn't take to being hustled too much or maybe that was just ours. Think that's why I prefer the Midget.

And I don't think it's fair to compare Elan and MGB - that's like comparing a Noble with an MGF - specialist sports car with production sports car.

All-in-all, in the Clubman's hands it was an inexpensive way to go racing and the works successes meant there was plenty of Special Tuning bits for the weekend warrior. Not sure how cost-effective they are now, though because I believe the FIA versions cost as much as a proper race car.

blackhands · 8 Jun 2005, 22:01 (Ref:1323530)

yep - I forgot the Marathon de la Route which was an outright win for an MGB - 5,620 miles in 84 hours

simon drabble · 9 Jun 2005, 06:30 (Ref:1323684)

FIA cars vary between 16-25k and works cars are 50-75k this is in line with Mini Coopers and Lotus Cortina's. By Comparison 26R is between 60-90 depending on history. I have raced an MGB round Pau and Spa and found it to be a pretty easy car to drive - everything is very progressive and I can understand why people use them in the 6 hour race as they are not demanding to drive. My only gripe was the rear diff seal going both times I drove it and oil getting into the rear drum making it (especially round Pau) somewhat exciting!
Al seems you have been a little unlucky with you cars or they have not been particularily well prepped!

Tony Crossley · 10 Jun 2005, 06:49 (Ref:1324577)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Point one. No siamesed head you are thinking of the A series engine.

Point 2. Never heard the oscillation story before. Also having driven one for many years I've never experienced it either. You sure you aren't thinking of the Truimph Spitfire?

Anyway the point is well made that the Elan was the benchmark but it was low volume and when it came to long distance racing tended to fade away. That really was my point the Elans in longer races now tend to leave the B behind. Totally the opposite to my understanding of the contemporary case.

Peter, the head on the B is siamesed. It has two inlet and 3 exhaust port all on the same side of the head. This is one of the reasons the car can never produce big power.
The best you get from a B engine these days, running a 5 bearing crank is around 190bhp - this will be reving somewhere around 7-8000rpm.
The trick is keeping them together!

The B's don't do that badly in racing these days and there is a very healthy following in the MG car club race series. I race mine, and have owned it for the last 14 years.
They can be made to handle and with a competent driver behind the wheel they will suprise a lot of modern cars - especially on trackdays where I like to go hunting down Elises and similar cars.
This front end problem sounds like hogwash and must have been due to worn out dampers - I've never encountered this problem in 14 years of hard road and track driving.

As for the Elan - well I have one of those as well and my modified B would chew it up and spit it out in about half a lap of any circuit. A standard B would struggle though, and the Elan certainly provides the much better feedback to the driver. It does feel fragile however, and the race cars must have a lot more spent on them than the B to make sure they last. It might just be that it is more glamorous to spend big money on a Lotus, than on an MGB...

Ultimately though, the B is incredibly friendly and predictable - even when modified. My brother tried mine on a trackday and got into the grove within about 4 laps, even waggling the front wheel in the air. I think that is alarge part of the appeal and may explain part of their success. They are very undemanding to lap in consistently and quickly.

This is what it is like driving a modified one these days (although the engine still has some development to go, IE: I can go up a cam and go larger on the valves on the head)
http://www.justgofaster.com/gallery/...Rockingham.wmv

Tony

**Peter Mallett** · 10 Jun 2005, 06:54 (Ref:1324580)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Crossley

Peter, the head on the B is siamesed. It has two inlet and 3 exhaust port all on the same side of the head. This is one of the reasons the car can never produce big power.
Tony

Tony,

Thanks for that.

Al,

My apologies.

Tony Crossley · 10 Jun 2005, 07:28 (Ref:1324592)

No probs, us leaf sprung folk should stick together

**Peter Mallett** · 10 Jun 2005, 07:48 (Ref:1324608)

See you at Silverstone

275 GTB-4 · 10 Jun 2005, 10:16 (Ref:1324672)

I am reliably informed (ahem) that the 3 bearing engined MGBs are faster and more free spinning than those with 5 bearings.

I agonised over whether I should buy Elan in their heyday....not without their problems...used to wind up their rear doughnuts and the bodies would creak and carry on after a time...

I would have either or both tomorrow.....

Tony Crossley · 10 Jun 2005, 10:24 (Ref:1324676)

That may be right, the 5 bearings are tougher for the higher revs though. And obviously a darn sight easier to come by.

**John Turner** · 10 Jun 2005, 13:15 (Ref:1324776)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Crossley

Peter, the head on the B is siamesed. It has two inlet and 3 exhaust port all on the same side of the head. This is one of the reasons the car can never produce big power. Tony

Which, I guess, is why my old crossflow headed version (mentioned at the beginning of the thread) seemed so much livelier than standard.

midgetman · 13 Jun 2005, 16:47 (Ref:1327481)

>>>See you at Silverstone

MG Silverstone Peter? Which race you doing?

Max

**Peter Mallett** · 13 Jun 2005, 16:55 (Ref:1327489)

Lol. I've put an entry in for the 75ks race which closes the meeting. Its allcomers and I'm a long standing member (ooh er missus)

ClearHooter · 13 Jun 2005, 16:56 (Ref:1327491)

I've driven and worked on MG's over the last 35 years. While I can say the bottom ends and trannys do seem "bullet proof" I can't say that about the heads. I got quiet a few that were cracked or warped. I started using copper head gaskets and the did seem to improve the reliability. Wheather this problem was related to cooling system failures I cant say positively.

The occilation problem only seemed to occur on washboards on dirt roads with me. The live rear axle and the light weight contributed to that. This led me to the development of "rule 2" "Don't drive your sports car on dirt roads." "Rule 1?" Don't let anyone else drive your sports car." "Rule 3" Don't let someone else drive your sports car drunk on dirt roads."

Heebeegeetee · 13 Jun 2005, 19:22 (Ref:1327588)

I've road rallied a BGT for a few years. It's been that good I have no desire to change it. Very versatile, can carry all your stuff and luggage on the European events. Plenty of space inside the car for driver and esp. the navigator to work.

Never heard of an oscillation before. You're young mate died 'cos he was running around in a clapped out car, I'd suggest, Al. I run uprated valves in the lever arms, mildly uprated front srings and roll bar, standard leaves. Its been fine. Better than a plus four Morgan and TR4 I've been in on rallies. Can beat 911's on the speed tests we have in the HRCR events. Have yet to be passed by an Elan on a track day.

I spannered for a pal at Pau a few years back. There were two old(ish - better be careful

) boys sharing a B. The highlight of my weekend was watching the practice of the one hour race, watching the B deal with a 911 and then an Aston. Absolutely great stuff to watch. You can see the B's outdragging 911's at the Le Mans races. Don't ask me how, but they do.

A couple of things I'd say about the B. They're far easier too spoil than improve. One easy way to absolutely ruin the steering is to fit a smaller woodrimmed Mota Lita steering wheel, which is a shame, 'cos so many people fit them. It's one of the worst things you can do, and then of course when other people drive or test them, they make pronouncements upon the steering. Heavy, lifeless, can't see the gauges etc, all the things that my car doesn't suffer from.
And the other thing, is that they're always compared to more expensive cars. Not as good as an Elan, some say. But what was? And the Elan cost about twice as much, if you built it yourself!

We've had terrific fun in ours. We'll probably never part with it.