Judd LMP2 engine

[Mike_Wooshy]

According to Mulsanne Mike, Judd have announced there LMP2 engine is going to be based on a BMW 4.0 V8 I presume this is M3 engine. Intresting times ahead, wonder if this will tie with the Current GT2 and the possibly the DTM car that is supposed to be on its way.

[Speed-King]

Dinan are also suppossed to built a version of that engine for the 2011 Grand Am season for usage in both DPs and GTs.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike_Wooshy

According to Mulsanne Mike, Judd have announced there LMP2 engine is going to be based on a BMW 4.0 V8 I presume this is M3 engine. Intresting times ahead, wonder if this will tie with the Current GT2 and the possibly the DTM car that is supposed to be on its way.

I wonder if any teams have signed up to use the engine next season?

[gwyllion]

Sodemo already showed a concept engine based on the BMW M3 engine for LMP2 in 2008. See http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...mp2-power.html

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Mike_Wooshy

According to Mulsanne Mike, Judd have announced there LMP2 engine is going to be based on a BMW 4.0 V8 I presume this is M3 engine. Intresting times ahead, wonder if this will tie with the Current GT2 and the possibly the DTM car that is supposed to be on its way.

I'm suprised by that choice, unless Judd are aware BMW will not make the GT2 engine available to P2 teams.

[Mike_Wooshy]

We have seen this card played before with Judd and the Cossie DFV. So in ways I dont see this as a bad thing as such just broadens the market place.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by JAG

I'm suprised by that choice, unless Judd are aware BMW will not make the GT2 engine available to P2 teams.

In http://www.lola-group.com/newsstory.asp?NewsId=260 Lola lists a number of possible engines for the LMP2 2011 car:

In alphabetical order

• BMW V8
• Ford 2.0litre turbo
• HPD V6 turbo
• Jaguar V8 N/A
• Judd V8 N/A
• Nissan V8 N/A
• Toyota V8 N/A

That suggests there will at least be 2 engines based on a production BMW engine.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

In http://www.lola-group.com/newsstory.asp?NewsId=260 Lola lists a number of possible engines for the LMP2 2011 car:
That suggests there will at least be 2 engines based on a production BMW engine.

Any word on the Toyota engine?

[gwyllion]

No clue. Nissan = IES and Ford = Roush Yates (although they also mentioned 3.5 V6 EcoBoost Turbo as starting point).

[knighty]

there is now a brief feature on DSC and a nice piccy - certainly does look sweet, it will be on display in the silverstone paddock......I'm sure they will sign many customers.......some of the mounts are in the same position as the existing 3.4 V8 LMP2 motor in order to keep fitment simple and cost effective..........will be interesting to see how it performs.....I wonder if they have pulled a similar trick to IES via using a much lighter flat-plane crank and internal weights similar to the Ferrari engine.......or if they stuck to the cross-plane crank nature of the standard BMW V8......I'm sure once we hear it run it will be obvious........ooooh excitement!!!!

[gwyllion]

FYI official press release and high resolution picture

[knighty]

here is a nice bit of info on the base engine:

http://www.zimbio.com/Look+at+BMWs+M...gine+In+Detail

The more I look at it the more I can see Judds logic for using this engine, basically the throttle bodies can be carried over, externally all they have done is add the trumpets........cost wise this is really significant, on the Nissan IES V8 these parts (throttle bodies & manifolds) are bespoke parts = more cost.......internally I'm sure Judd have used bespoke valves, pistons, rods & crank.

One thing that worries me about this BMW engine is the cylinder bores - from my personal experience of BMW V8's, the alu-sil bores are very prone to scuffing on a race motor, the pistons basically run directly on the on acid-etched aluminium, whereby the silicone sits proud........its OK for a production engine, but once you tune it we found you had no choice but to nikasil coat the bores, at a cost of several thousand pounds........which is not the end of the world, but its certainly needs to be done.

Judd seem to be getting excited by its low weight but dont actually quote a number.........for reference the IES Nissan is "less than 150Kg".......but does it really matter now that LMP2 cars are going to be so much heavier.......I guess it allows a team to play with ballast placement.........just noticed the Sodemo lump is 140Kg.......so it looks like both the Nissan and BMW are comparable weight wise.

[betablocker]

what ill be interested in is the height and the length of the engine. from what ive seen the standard engine is big. length and height.

weve seen the libre nissan having to have a much higher engine cover to accomodate it so ill be amazed by what other teams using say a zytec chassis or lola come up with.

i think libre get away with length because of their short transverse gearbox most teams use a longitudinal gearbox soooo possibly longer wheel base cars next year for lmp2????

[Jaguarman1]

Originally Posted by Mike_Wooshy

We have seen this card played before with Judd and the Cossie DFV. So in ways I dont see this as a bad thing as such just broadens the market place.

Not quite the same. Engine Developments were contracted by Cosworth to build the DFV, along with other companies such as Nicholson McLaren and Hart.
They then designed their own 90deg CV (which found it's way to Williams, Brabham, Ligier and Lotus among others) and this engine was part of a family based to take on the DFV after familiarising themselves with the Cosworth. From there they built the EV and then the V10 GV.
I have very fond memories of working there 89-92 and still look out for their fortunes.

[knighty]

shock horror - DSC is reporting that the Judd-HK LMP2 is 3.6 litres!!!.......this would suggest Judd are chasing a big bore small stroke high revving engine, therefore a high power number, considering this engine is going to be used mostly in the long fast LMS circuits, I think this might not be such a bad idea.........I dont expect the torque will be anywherenear comparable to the 4.5L NISMO engine, but I dont expect the NISMO engine will be able to rev anywherenear as high as the HK engine, therefore not as powerful........it will be interesting to see how they both perform/compare.........I suspect the HK is the engine for big fast circuits, but the NISMO will be better for tight twisty circuits.......hey-ho, lets wait and see.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by knighty

I dont expect the torque will be anywherenear comparable to the 4.5L NISMO engine, but I dont expect the NISMO engine will be able to rev anywherenear as high as the HK engine, therefore not as powerful.

According to http://www.lemans.org/en/news/First-...o-V8_2748.html the NISMO 4.5 V8 produces 580 Nm. That is quite a lot for a normally aspired engine.

We will see an interesting mix of engines in LMP2 this year: torquey HPD 2.8 V6 turbo vs screaming Judd 3.6 V8 vs Nismo 4.5 V8.

[Tim the Grey]

That's the way I like it. Various ways to achieve the same ends!

[knighty]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

According to http://www.lemans.org/en/news/First-...o-V8_2748.html the NISMO 4.5 V8 produces 580 Nm. That is quite a lot for a normally aspired engine.

We will see an interesting mix of engines in LMP2 this year: torquey HPD 2.8 V6 turbo vs screaming Judd 3.6 V8 vs Nismo 4.5 V8.

Hey Gwyllion - another excellent find!!! - yes 580 NM is a good number, not sure I believe the 450bhp figure when I know the 4.0 IES version already makes 490bhp!!!.........anyway, a few years back Peter Elleray was a member of the forum he said that in his Bentley LeMans days, via much track simulation, they deduced that engine torque was of paramount importance, more so than outright power, as the LeMans circuit is basically about 6 huge acelleration zones.......hence the Bentley turbo engine was pushing just less than 600bhp (nut much in its day), but had well over 800NM of torque........this seems to be where the Diesels perform well too - acelleration.........sounds like the NISMO engine is not so bad in that case.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by joeb

Any word on the Toyota engine?

I'm assuming that the Toyota P2 engine would probably be the one that was badged as a Lexus that Ganassi used in their DPs for years in Grand Am

[gwyllion]

The engine sounds very nice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZmnZxZty4c This also confirms the 3.6 liter displacement.