Diesel Power

[HORNDAWG]

What ever happened to the Judd Perkins/Cat 5.0L V-10 diesel. I hear all the woes about privateers not having access to a diesel engine but this one had a lot of r&d done where is it??




L.P.

[AU N EGL]

11/11/2006

New LMP1 Engine Runs For The First Time

Engine Developments' new 5,5 litre V10 LMP1 engine has successfully run on the dyno ahead of schedule. The GV5,5 S2 engine fired up for the first time on October 27th, and very quickly acheived the performance targets set.

Having completed its routine power testing and tuning program, the engine is now being prepared for its final test program prior to being shipped to Pescarolo Sport for on track testing in December.

"The 5,5 has gone very well so far, in fact it has met every target we set for it. We look forward to the first in-car test next month and are confident that it can carry on in the 2007 LMES Championship where the 5 litre left off this year", says John Judd.

EDL is currently manufacturing parts for a number of new engines due to an increase in demand for the 2007 season.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

EDL is currently manufacturing parts for a number of new engines due to an increase in demand for the 2007 season.

That's an interesting quote.

[HORNDAWG]

But the GV5-S2 is a gas engine. Just the possible hint of a hint of a possible maybe!! With the little teaser statement.

L.P.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

But the GV5-S2 is a gas engine. Just the possible hint of a hint of a possible maybe!! With the little teaser statement.

L.P.

I believe if you read articles about the engine from the designers it IS the gas(petrol) engine with the necessary tuning and reinforcing structure to maintain the engine at the stresses of diesel. I forget where the article was but I believe it was linked to in one of the original Audi and diesel threads from last off-season. Plus in using the previous engine design, the sales are boosted because customers know how and what it takes to install them. It would be great to see another diesel on track though. Wasn't there one privaterr at Le Mans in 04 or 05, but kept shearing clutches and driveline parts from the torque?

[HORNDAWG]

Yes the engine and car pictures I posted are that effort.

L.P.

[TWK]

"What happened..." is that engine was hopelessly uncompetitive from the start and has since been even more hopelessly outmoded by the new Audi engine, and soon the new Peugeot engine.

GM once tried turning a gasoline engine into a diesel, with results that set back passenger car diesels in the US thirty years. That approach isn't going to work with racing engines, either. That engine was DOA.

[HORNDAWG]

Yes that particular rendition may very well be "dead". But the question of what Judd will do with the information gained be, if anything? With the current thrust(hehe) of diesel power, I suspect that they would have an engine in the pipe to sell to the non factory teams. And the original project was based on a diesel engine not converted gas(VW). Did VW squash it because of Audi???? At last blush they had the #'s up quite a bit from these!


===313 hp 5.0L V10 TDI [25]===

Volkswagen 5.0L V10 TDI cutaway


The V10 TDI is the biggest diesel engine used in personal cars. It has been used in a Lola sports car in 2004 to compete Le Mans under a Caterpillar badge (perkins.com).
Configuration 4,921 cc water cooled 90° V10 Cylinders Bore × stroke 81 x 95.5 (0,85 ratio), 492 cc/cylinder, 88 mm cylinder spacing, low-pressure die-cast aluminium alloy block (AlSi8Cu3) with bolted-on grey cast iron bearing tunnel and crank carrier. Head light metal alloy, crossflow, inlet side within the V, gear driven single overhead cam, two valves per cylinder, 18:1 Compression ratio Fuel system direct injection diesel, Bosch EDC 16 management, 2050 bar unit injector pump, solenoid valve, 72° ignition interval Aspiration two electrically-controlled Garrett GT1852V variable vane turbochargers with intercooler Dimensions 544 mm length Output 230 kW (313 hp) @ 3,750 rpm, 750 N·m (553 ft·lbf) @ 2,000 rpm 250 kW (340 hp) @ 3,750 rpm, 750 N·m (553 ft·lbf) @ 1,750 rpm with piezo injectors, 2007 Touareg aftermarket 257 kW (350 hp), 850 N·m Available on VW Touareg, VW Phaeton

L.P.

[Bob Riebe]

IF, they could could a field of from four to eight diesel P cars, from from four to eight different manufacturers, I actually think, that for at least one year, curiosity would draw pretty good crowd.
Ya never know.
Bob

[HORNDAWG]

I think alternative fuels are more than just a 1 year shot. IMO they are here to stay in one form or another. Diesel being (at the moment) the easiest one to convert to. And diesel is actually more main stream, than alternative, with the flexibility to meld into alternatives (bio-diesel's).

L.P.

[HORNDAWG]

Well it would seem that the EDL(Judd) project is ongoing. With the GV5-S2 being the basis for the diesel program! They have a mule on the dyno and hope to move to the next stage of testing after the first of the year.

L.P.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Well it would seem that the EDL(Judd) project is ongoing. With the GV5-S2 being the basis for the diesel program! They have a mule on the dyno and hope to move to the next stage of testing after the first of the year.

L.P.

Thanks for finding that out.

Given that the 5.5litre petrol engine is on the dyno and is ahead of schedule with a number of teams lined up for that unit, I wonder if it's fair to assume that the diesel is at a similar stage and also scheduled to debut in 2007? Very intriguing!

Whilst I find the lack of aural excitement from a diesel to be unappealing, I'd be fascinated to see this unit installed and raced by a customer. And preferably by one of our top teams in order to gauge the potential for privateers to run competitively with Audi and Peugeot. I'm not excited by diesels, but this scenario appeals to me enormously. I'll be watching with great interest.

[knighty]

in response to the original post - it seems you are talking about 2 engines

1) CAT V10 5.0 - yes a VW motor but nothing to do with VW/VAG.....Ian Dawson took the engine from a road car!........the engine design and development work was done principally by Mountune, with a bit of help from CAT - from what I can make of the whole project - they did a good job with the funds and resources available to them......they did well to get 530bhp from a 2 valve 5.0 engine........obviously its a waste of time compared to Audis reputed 700bhp - if Henri Pescarolos data is to be believed - personally I believe him!........more recently, CAT are now not involved, and Ian Dawson got sponsorship from D1 oils who are a bio diesel producer.........I heard they went testing and rear ended the car at snetterton and wrote it off.......I think its been re-built, but the project has hit finance troubles again........they did well to get a car to LeMans in the first place........I would be surprised to see the VW based engine go any further.......if the Judd-Ricardo diesel takes off, I dare say Ian Dawson will be first in the que!........

2) If Judd and Ricardo had done anything worth talking about with their reputed 5.5 diesel project - I think they would be boasting about it by now - but its a MAJOR re-work for a gasoline engine.......new heads, new pistons and liners, new rods, new injection pumps and injectors, new head sealing method........last I heard was that they got a grant from the MIA in order to get a running engine on the dyno.......not heard anything since........personally I think now the R10 fuel tanks are smaller, the 5.5 Judd V10 petrol engine will be a cracking motor.......hence why upset the Judd applecart with a diesel......the 5.5 Judd petrol is only about 10bhp more.......but a drastic increase in torque.........and thats what you need for pounding down the fast straights at lemans and for pulling out of corners.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by knighty

in response to the original post - it seems you are talking about 2 engines

1) CAT V10 5.0 - yes a VW motor but nothing to do with VW/VAG.....Ian Dawson took the engine from a road car!........the engine design and development work was done principally by Mountune, with a bit of help from CAT - from what I can make of the whole project - they did a good job with the funds and resources available to them......they did well to get 530bhp from a 2 valve 5.0 engine........obviously its a waste of time compared to Audis reputed 700bhp - if Henri Pescarolos data is to be believed - personally I believe him!........more recently, CAT are now not involved, and Ian Dawson got sponsorship from D1 oils who are a bio diesel producer.........I heard they went testing and rear ended the car at snetterton and wrote it off.......I think its been re-built, but the project has hit finance troubles again........they did well to get a car to LeMans in the first place........I would be surprised to see the VW based engine go any further.......if the Judd-Ricardo diesel takes off, I dare say Ian Dawson will be first in the que!........

2) If Judd and Ricardo had done anything worth talking about with their reputed 5.5 diesel project - I think they would be boasting about it by now - but its a MAJOR re-work for a gasoline engine.......new heads, new pistons and liners, new rods, new injection pumps and injectors, new head sealing method........last I heard was that they got a grant from the MIA in order to get a running engine on the dyno.......not heard anything since........personally I think now the R10 fuel tanks are smaller, the 5.5 Judd V10 petrol engine will be a cracking motor.......hence why upset the Judd applecart with a diesel......the 5.5 Judd petrol is only about 10bhp more.......but a drastic increase in torque.........and thats what you need for pounding down the fast straights at lemans and for pulling out of corners.

Yes the evolution of a Judd diesel has now spanned two complete different engines.

1) The VW based Perkins/Cat engine was evidently not going to cut the mustard. So that program is now defunct. As most already knew(except me I guess).

2) The GV5-S2 diesel variant being developed with Ricardo seems to be coming along nicely. They seemed quite pleased with the progress of it. But I would agree that the tone was such,that your applecart scenario seems to be the general sentiment. I think that they are painfully aware of the Bang for the Buck theory. But I also think that they wish to have an engine ready, for the possibility, of a Privateer wanting to go against Audi and Peugeot with a diesel. Or the gas engine becoming non-competitive in the P-1 class, for whatever reason!

L.P.

[knighty]

Horndawg.........I think you have the petrol & diesel matters confused slightly.......the new upgrade GV5.5 S2 is a petrol engine.......I have not yet heard anything about the Judd/Ricardo diesel motor........Ricardo are not involved with the Judd Petrol engines..........

personally I think Ricardo are the brains behind the diesel engine - hence any technical information has come from Ricardo.......and they are just using the Judd engine architecture as a basis......I hate to say it but Judd know nothing about diesel or turbo technology..........Judd do normally aspirated petrol engines only.

[isynge]

EDL is currently manufacturing parts for a number of new engines due to an increase in demand for the 2007 season.

Following on from Knighty's comment, I read the bit above to cover Judd building additional GV5.5S2s for new customers such as Rollcentre etc, rather than building a number of brand new designs of engine.

Could be wrong and at some stage Judd may well need to look at going back to first principles but if the new petrol is as good as some are indicating then this could keep them busy enough for 2007.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by knighty

Horndawg.........I think you have the petrol & diesel matters confused slightly.......the new upgrade GV5.5 S2 is a petrol engine.......I have not yet heard anything about the Judd/Ricardo diesel motor........Ricardo are not involved with the Judd Petrol engines..........

personally I think Ricardo are the brains behind the diesel engine - hence any technical information has come from Ricardo.......and they are just using the Judd engine architecture as a basis......I hate to say it but Judd know nothing about diesel or turbo technology..........Judd do normally aspirated petrol engines only.

No I am not confused!
Those facts as given came from within EDL.
And that is quite a large leap to connect Ricardo to a petrol engine out of what I stated.
(side note) A motor uses power from another source and converts it. An engine creates its own. Cars as a general rule so far still produce their own power therefore they have engines.
As to Judd knowing nothing about diesel. They know enough to collaborate with Ricardo on their current variant GV5-S2 diesel engine. Thus making a competitive model at least a possibility if not a probability. And petrol is not the only thing that Judd does as is evident with their four year old diesel project, which is on its second engine.

L.P.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by TWK

"What happened..." is that engine was hopelessly uncompetitive from the start and has since been even more hopelessly outmoded by the new Audi engine, and soon the new Peugeot engine.

I wonder if a developed version of something like the Judd Perkins/Cat 5.0L V-10 diesel would have a future in LMP 2 as a customer/ privateer engine?

[canam]

Originally Posted by andy97

I wonder if a developed version of something like the Judd Perkins/Cat 5.0L V-10 diesel would have a future in LMP 2 as a customer/ privateer engine?

I think that weight would be a problem. It is difficult enough for the P2 runners to race at the minimum (and I don't think many can) allowed ---with a petrol engine. Trying a diesel would break the scales while also creating problems for static weight distribution. The Audi had to be given a weight 'break' (other teams had to add 25kg to their cars) and they still race above 925kg. I think the Peugeot will have even more problems given that the coupe is liable to be intrinsically heavier than an open car. As for P2, I just can't see it.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by canam

As for P2, I just can't see it.

Given that no regulations even exist for diesel engines in LMP2, I suspect the ACO technical boffs probably agree.

[HORNDAWG]

This is just a basis to show that the base tech. is already in the non-factory arena. Scroll to the bottom and check out the "R". Well all are pretty good examples.

http://www.bankspower.com/

L.P.