LMP Coupes

[ss_collins]

But is there customer interest in a Coupe - Epsilon don't seem to have one despite a really clever design. I imagine a coupe has a significantly higher price tag...

see the last story here - on another LMP Coupe (LMPC?)
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsfeb07.html


Anyway heres a thread about the pros and cons of LMP coupes - the ones we know about

Lola - likely to appear later this year - DSC know the most about it at the mo
Peugeot 908 - first race at Monza
Epsilon EE LMP - needs more money I suspect design very advanced

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I imagine a coupe has a significantly higher price tag...

Not a bet I'd take... unless I was on the other side.

[MulsanneMike]

I've brought this up before, but Bill Riley reckons a closed top car adds between 50 and 100,000 to the car's price. I never asked if that is to each car out the door or to total design/development price.

[Iceman8598]

From what I can see in the picture, that Epsilon bears a somewhat striking resemblance to the TS020 Toyota GTOne of 99, barring a few minor differences. We all know how fast that thing was if it hadn't faced the problems it did. My only concern with trying to maximize centre of gravity always turns to accessibility. You run into problems you could fix in a matter of mins during an enduro event, you take the cover off to fix them and thanks to low gravity planning some parts may be covered by others and less accessible, hopefully there's some middle ground in that thinking.

[ss_collins]

well the issue featuring that car should be on sale next week (online edition) and is the NA shops a week after that.

I forgot about the riley - much the same deal as the epsilon I assume.

[Justin Moran]

Not sure if this is actual or just rumor but the Creation Autosportif team were talking about developing a coupe for this season in readiness for the ACO reg change in 2010. But as of yet I have neither seen nor heard anything of the project, just alot about the sale of the CA06 chassis and the development of the "Big Wheel" Creation CA07. So I wondeer if the deal with AER has precluded them from developing the new coupe?

[The Real DMN]

There was a bit about Creations plans somewhere in the news archive of Mulsane Mikes site and also on DSC I belive.

Pic here though:

[Justin Moran]

Originally Posted by The Real DMN

There was a bit about Creations plans somewhere in the news archive of Mulsane Mikes site and also on DSC I belive.

Pic here though:

That's the baby! And mighty fine too IF it ever comes to fruition!? Still not heard if it will happen this season though?

[JAG]

Why should costs for a coupe be significantly more than an open car?

We had over a decade with Group C/IMSA GTP coupes, are we saying it's more difficult/too expensive to make a coupe these days!

If it cost's $50k-$100k extra to design a coupe, even build each individual car, is that really significant?

How much more does an RS Spyder cost over a Lola, a Lola over the Pilbeam etc?

A number of custmers in GT racing have told how they chose an Aston or Ferrari over cheaper, equally competive, Saleens, Panoz etc.

The reason, they can attract greater sponsorship, and have a higher resale value.

If I was a prospective sponoser, all things being equal, I'd choose the coupe everytime. They recieve far, far more coverage from the media and fans, just look at the number of threads on this very forum.

It's no coincidence manufactuers like Bentley, Mercedes and Toyota went down the coupe route, even when regs were against them.

As for Epsillon not selling any cars, maybe that has more to do with them seemingly springing up out of nowhere. If they had a car up and running there would likely be a little more interest.

[ss_collins]

do'h forgot that too - Kieron showed that to me in the pit lane at Le Mans

Ok so

Peugeot 908 - first race at Monza, testing currently
Lola - likely to appear later this year - DSC know the most about it at the mo
Epsilon EE LMP - needs more money I suspect design very advanced
Riley - needs a (rich) customer
Creation - 07 car may have a top on it - first race at Monza?

Re the epsilon - the team is proper and Travis/Villadelprat have long track records

[JAG]

Originally Posted by C9/89

That's the baby! And mighty fine too IF it ever comes to fruition!? Still not heard if it will happen this season though?

It won't happen this season but last I read on DSC it would be built.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by JAG

Why should costs for a coupe be significantly more than an open car?

We had over a decade with Group C/IMSA GTP coupes, are we saying it's more difficult/too expensive to make a coupe these days!

If it cost's $50k-$100k extra to design a coupe, even build each individual car, is that really significant?

I think its pretty clear why it costs more. Lots more detail design, significantly more difficult crash test (these days nothing like the Group C/GTP FIA test), hell, there is simply more material that goes into the tub. And Riley comes from the position of the small manufacturer, so yes, 50-100,000 is very significant.

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by JAG

It won't happen this season but last I read on DSC it would be built.

think there was something along the lines of the coupe creation being built for 2008 with the AIM/judd ethanol V10

[JAG]

Why should $50k, even $100k be such a huge deal when it costs $1m+ for a single RS Spyder or Aston DBR9, with plenty of takers?

Teams aren't lining up for an Epsilon or Riley because they haven't produced a competitive ACO car for 10+ years, if ever.

If Lola's coupe goes into productin I have no doubt they'd be snapped up, even at a $100k premium over an open car. Coupes would be a magnet for sponsors, just as the Astons are in the GT1 class.

Aren't we always told Grand Am isn't neccessarily cheaper to run in than the ALMS, as it's the running costs and infrastructure that contribute to the bulk of costs?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

Why should $50k, even $100k be such a huge deal when it costs $1m+ for a single RS Spyder or Aston DBR9, with plenty of takers?

Teams aren't lining up for an Epsilon or Riley because they haven't produced a competitive ACO car for 10+ years, if ever.

If Lola's coupe goes into productin I have no doubt they'd be snapped up, even at a $100k premium over an open car. Coupes would be a magnet for sponsors, just as the Astons are in the GT1 class.

Aren't we always told Grand Am isn't neccessarily cheaper to run in than the ALMS, as it's the running costs and infrastructure that contribute to the bulk of costs?

Jag I think you are correct on all accounts here.

I just looked at the price of a Grand AM Crawford. it was $405,000 plus user supplied engine, transmission, electronics and fuel mananagment. which might add an additional $250,000 to $300,000 to the total package price

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by JAG

Why should $50k, even $100k be such a huge deal when it costs $1m+ for a single RS Spyder or Aston DBR9, with plenty of takers?

Teams aren't lining up for an Epsilon or Riley because they haven't produced a competitive ACO car for 10+ years, if ever.

If Lola's coupe goes into productin I have no doubt they'd be snapped up, even at a $100k premium over an open car. Coupes would be a magnet for sponsors, just as the Astons are in the GT1 class.

Aren't we always told Grand Am isn't neccessarily cheaper to run in than the ALMS, as it's the running costs and infrastructure that contribute to the bulk of costs?

Answer this then...the rules are on the books for closed top cars and have been...if they are so easy to build and financially competitive...why hasn't anyone done it yet? Don't mistake costs pushed out the door to the purchaser with costs that the manufacturer has to keep down in order to make any kind of profit or if simply to break even. Point being, if you can design a completely competitive open topped car yet make 50,000 more profit, why would you make a closed top car? If Lola is sourcing a manufacturer to fund their car then that's your answer. It will take the funding of a manufacturer to find the advantage while having no worries about the manufacturing and development costs that would then have to be packaged off to potential buyers. I'll suggest every rendering we've seen, Riley's, Lola's, Creation's, and even Epsilon's has been dangled in order to attempt to lure a major manufacturer as there is no good reason for a privateer manufacturer to be building one themselves as it kills the car's potential profit margin.

[andy_b]

Originally Posted by The Real DMN

There was a bit about Creations plans somewhere in the news archive of Mulsane Mikes site and also on DSC I belive.

Pic here though:

hee hee, I recognise that drawing !LOL!

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Answer this then...the rules are on the books for closed top cars and have been...if they are so easy to build and financially competitive...why hasn't anyone done it yet? Don't mistake costs pushed out the door to the purchaser with costs that the manufacturer has to keep down in order to make any kind of profit or if simply to break even. Point being, if you can design a completely competitive open topped car yet make 50,000 more profit, why would you make a closed top car? If Lola is sourcing a manufacturer to fund their car then that's your answer. It will take the funding of a manufacturer to find the advantage while having no worries about the manufacturing and development costs that would then have to be packaged off to potential buyers. I'll suggest every rendering we've seen, Riley's, Lola's, Creation's, and even Epsilon's has been dangled in order to attempt to lure a major manufacturer as there is no good reason for a privateer manufacturer to be building one themselves as it kills the car's potential profit margin.

I know you know much more of this than I, but is there truly rules on the books for coupes considering the vacillations of the ACO on the specifics for 2010?? This in itself gives possible builders and customers pause due to the instability and possible cost escalations! Also do you think it takes a full 10% across the board to produce a coupe as compared to a non-coupe? I can see it in tub material and an increase in lay-up<(but not a full 10%). As to the engineering side, the programs are already in place. Is it so much harder to fine tune a coupe in the tunnel?

L.P.

[The Real DMN]

Originally Posted by andy_b

hee hee, I recognise that drawing !LOL!

I stole it. Unashamedly so too...