How fast is the Williams really?

[Mr V]

Does anyone remember the conversations, back in 1998/1999 every qualifying session on ITV when Ferrari had the second best car on the grid and Michael would pull out a pole lap? if you don't remember, here's a re-cap!

Murray Walker, "Just how fast is the Ferrari?"
Martin Brundle, "As fast as Eddie Irvine, Michael just adds that bit extra!"

Here we are, three years or so later and we have the same situation at Williams, so my question is this........

Just how fast is the Williams?

Is it........

As fast as Rafe, JPM adds that bit extra!

or

As fast as JPM, Rafes not doing a good enough job in Qualifying!

[Valve Bounce]

Williams, as I posted on the other thread, is not as fast as Ferrari; JPM is something special. If he can out qualify both SchM and Rubens, he has got to be really good. Look for JPM in the red car in 2004.

Valve

[z2252314]

That special 'bit' seems to go missing on race day. Michelins heat up quickly which gives all michelin runners an advantage on saturday. I still expect Michael to take it tommorrow.

[Mr V]

Z...... you didn't read it properly, this is about JPM and Rafe who are on the same tyres, not JPM and TGF who haven't got the same tyres!

[Gt_R]

You have to conclude, that after 5 times JPM being faster than Ralf, that JPM is an asset that benefits the whole qualifying package Williams have...

No doubt that JPM adds the bit extra that see him right up there...and congrats to him for all these excellent work.

However, please do not close one eye to what Williams and Michelin had achieved. At France Quals, Michelin had a clear upperhand over the Bridgestones, with a whooping 7 top ten qualifier. The fact that only the Ferraris broke into the top 3 shows that Bridgestone deficit in quals tires is closed and levelled by a better car. That said, i would think the car/package both Williams and Ferrari have for qualifiers are very much close.(though race trim is a different story) In fact, the Michelins look to be very good at the tight final section.

But to have JPM come out on top of all the other Michelin runners shows : the driver has something to do with the great results!

Keep it up!

[DNQ]

It takes a certain driver to qualify on pole 5 times in a row. Senna twice managed to get pole 7 times in a row (in '88 and '90 I think). Can JPM beat him? I dont know.

My point? JPM flatters the Williams. Its not a great car, and the engine isnt clearly the best in the field like it was last year.

[R]

Originally posted by mr v
Just how fast is the Williams?

Is it........

As fast as Rafe, JPM adds that bit extra!

Mr. V, this is spooky! Are you a mind reader, or what? I had just planned to come here and post the exact same thoughts!

I think the part I quoted is the answer to your question. Ralf is a very good driver, and is showing where that Williams car really should be on the grid. The new God of qualifying, Juan Pablo Montoya, is saving us from a Ferrari lockout on the front row of the grid! That little bit extra which JPM adds, is what's putting the car there.

That being said, JPM certainly has Ralf rattled.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Gt_R


However, please do not close one eye to what Williams and Michelin had achieved.

GT_R this isn't about what Williams and Michelin have acheived in respect to others, it's about the two drivers within Williams. (as you also noted). The Williams/Michelin package can be put forward as a contributer to a good qualifying package, however, The Ferrari/Bridgestone package being the better package in race trim often falls upon deaf ears, it's usually stated that it's then the driver who makes all the difference!

[Red]

The question made sense in 98-99, since the first 6 places were spread among 1.5-2 seconds, not 0.5 like in 2002. Pablos is fast. But so is Williams. The gap between the 2 drivers is not at all "that bit extra"...

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Red
The question made sense in 98-99, since the first 6 places were spread among 1.5-2 seconds, not 0.5 like in 2002. Pablos is fast. But so is Williams. The gap between the 2 drivers is not at all "that bit extra"...

Of course this thread must be nonsense Red, i mean, Juan Pablo can't possibly be anything like the mighty TGF ay

[Rick]

I wonder if Ralf still wants that "number 1 driver" idea he had last year!

[Red]

Originally posted by mr v
Of course this thread must be nonsense Red, i mean, Juan Pablo can't possibly be anything like the mighty TGF ay

that's not for me to say (I mean that "possibly be anything"; right now he isn't, but he might become. Or maybe not.) Anyway I was almost sure that Schumacher Michael has nothing to do with this thread, nonsense or not, other than his brother Ralf :confused:

[Airhead]

I'd say the Williams was about THAT fast.

The rest of 'em look pretty close to THAT fast on my large screen TV as well.

[Onlooker]

Ralf seems to have gone quiet on that one rick??????So wpuld I if I was shown up as he is,but then it's hard to get traction when your stuck on the coat tails of your bro!!!

[f1manoz]

Certainly JPM is adding a bit to the performance of the car, because Ralf has not been able to put together the same kind of results, in qualifying at least. He seems to have discovered the knack of putting together one blinding qualifying run to take the pole.

What JPM has to do now though is finish in front of the Ferrari's. He's had 0 from 4 so far, hopefully he can finally take 1 from 5 tomorrow.

[Airhead]

Umm, Ralf is useless...

[neilap]

It is not possible to get more from the car than it has so it is all down to the driver. We all know that JPM is more than willing to take risks on the track. That is what is needed to put in one fast lap. In qualifying JPM is able to concentrate and stay calm enough to run a lightening fast lap. It is insane how well this second year F1 racer can improve lap after lap. I feel next year he will be even better because he will more than likely have more to say about how the car should be set up. The Williams had awesome mechanical grip. As usual Hobbs thinks its the "BMW Powah", but lately he has been sounding a little like a lush.
I was actually grinning from ear to ear watching JPM on pole. After all he and JV are the closest thing we have to a driver from the U.S.

[facco]

Originally posted by mr v
Just how fast is the Williams?

Is it........

As fast as Rafe, JPM adds that bit extra!

just my feelings!
And, what can I say? The guy is just Juan POLE Montoya.

[Gt_R]

mrv, nobody neglected the fact that Ferrari had a very good race package which played a major contribution to its successes this year. All i'm asking for is to balance the judgement on all the significant factors. So if you'd kindly try not to limit yourself to Red and my comments as "JPM isn't great, blah blah"-type.

Just as how the tyres can screw up JPM's races, it does play a role in improving not only JPM, but also quite a few other Michelin runners, performance in quals. But of course, credit must be given to JPM, because he did pull a better result out of the bag where Ralf couldn't, and that showed him to be an asset. Undoubtedly fast, i do appreciate greatly his stunning ability to string everything into one fast lap which would top all the rest. That's the mark of a brilliant qualifier!

But don't let that appreciation get the better of you~

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Gt_R
So if you'd kindly try not to limit yourself to Red and my comments as "JPM isn't great, blah blah"-type.

I apologize if thats how it sounds GT_R, the point i was trying to make (albeit unsuccessfully it would seem!) For quite a while now, we have heard how Michael's ability has made him stand out from the rest, and i agree, it has! The thing is, his machinary has also helped that, but, his ability in comparison to Rubens or Eddie in the same car is the main thing! Now JPM is doing the same thing to Rafe, who also has equal equipment, but, it has been brought up on this thread that the Williams/Michelin package is whats helped him to these poles over the others. When i started this thread i was making the comparison between to team-mates not JPM and TGF, but, as others have brought this comparison into the thread i just thought i'd highlight that the Ferrari/Bridgestone package has helped him to victories over everybody, but the most important thing is the victories over his team-mate, just as it is for JPM to grab pole over Rafe, not everybody else!

Phew.........hope that clears things up a bit, lets have a beer!

[Sato san]

Originally posted by Rick
I wonder if Ralf still wants that "number 1 driver" idea he had last year!

hehehe..i wonder if he feels a tad silly now ??

[alesi95]

I Know that Montoya is often compared to his idol Senna especially since this string of Poles started, But what strikes me is the simialrities to Senna's 1986 season.

Senna was often on Pole in the Lotus in 86, but the John Player machine just couldn't hack it in the races. A better Boost to fuel ration in the Williams meant Senna would often have to hang back and Prosts in the Mclaren had the ability just to out fox both of them.

[Inigo Montoya]

Its JPM. He appears to have "that little extra" just like TGF. Hmmm, Montoya and Fisichella at Ferrari in 04? Naaaah, stop dreaming...

[Avid Merrion]

We can only but dream .

[z2252314]

I apologize if thats how it sounds GT_R, the point i was trying to make (albeit unsuccessfully it would seem!) For quite a while now, we have heard how Michael's ability has made him stand out from the rest, and i agree, it has! The thing is, his machinary has also helped that, but, his ability in comparison to Rubens or Eddie in the same car is the main thing! Now JPM is doing the same thing to Rafe, who also has equal equipment, but, it has been brought up on this thread that the Williams/Michelin package is whats helped him to these poles over the others. When i started this thread i was making the comparison between to team-mates not JPM and TGF, but, as others have brought this comparison into the thread i just thought i'd highlight that the Ferrari/Bridgestone package has helped him to victories over everybody, but the most important thing is the victories over his team-mate, just as it is for JPM to grab pole over Rafe, not everybody else!

Phew.........hope that clears things up a bit, lets have a beer!

Fair post. If your saying that JPM is quicker than Ralf, then you have no argument here. I still think that to get to michaels level he has to convert those poles to race wins. He may not have a good race tyre, but then again, I do believe he has a better qualifying tyre.