How would you organise sportscar racing?

[johntt]

In terms of classes and which cars you would have competing under what rules.

[johntt]

Here are my ideas:

(NB: by 'manufacturer' I mean volume producers e.g. Porsche, Audi, Peugeot, by 'constructor' I mean Lola, Pescarolo, Zytek).

GTP: Works to the proposed P1 Evo rules, technically the same as P1 but with closed roofs and road car styling (think Merc CLR, Maserati MC12). Manufacturers only. Works, semi-works and privateer teams allowed. Performance breaks for road derived engines (e.g. Aston Martin V12).

P1: Same as the current P1 rules, on equal level with the GTP class. No manufacturer works teams allowed, can only supply engines (like Aston suppling Charouz), no performance breaks for road derived engines. Only constructor chassis allowed.

P2: Use the current ACO P2 rules (including the 825kg minimum weight). No full works manufacturer teams allowed, only one semi-works manufacturer team allowed.

GTS: Essentially GT2 cars with a bit more aero and more open restrictors. Spec ECU to enforce a TC ban. Will accomondate everything that presently runs in GT1/2. Fuel tank and restrictor size will be determined by weight and engine size to keep them competitive.

GTS-B: GT3 cars that have been converted to meet GTS rules.

Re. GT3, GT4, GT4 Light, VdeV etc. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

All cars will be fitted with a spec KERS, however the energy recovered will be used to charge the battery and thus improve fuel economy. It will not be used to provide a boost. That belongs in A1GP, not sportscars.

[minimangler]

Hmmm your P1 would ban Pesca as a manufacturer, and your P2 would allow Penske Porsche, which would is a joke to me.

I like the energy recovery idea, and i reckon breaks for alternative fuels like electrics or hydrogen or what have you would be a great idea. Standard Gt ECU sounds good to me, but keep roughly the same power levels- YES PLEASE

[The Badger]

To be qiute honest , I would reintroduce the fuel formula again . It wasnt the best , but it was brilliant racing with big variety . It would also fit in very well with the currant greeny trend too .

Manufacturers must supply at least 1 if not 2 cars for a privateer to run .

1000 klick races all around ..... at least ten .

Penalty for missing rounds .

Emmmm ...... im still thinking about it !!!

[jonm2]

prototype 1 - proposed future p1 rules. closed roof, see peugeot 908, new lola etc. anything goes engine wise. kers allowed (2009) yet heavily monitored to control its potential affect on accelaration. hybrids encouraged to a degree in order to hopefully gain more attention from manufacturers (honda, toyota etc)


prototype 2 - current p2 rules. open roof - easy to tell difference between p1 and p2. doesnt need fixing particulary. perhaps make min weight lower (800 kg?) in order to make sure they dont race p1's too much in terms of engine grunt. some spec parts, e.g spec kers (2010) in order to encourage cheaper, 'cleaner' racing. cheaper = more privateers?


gt - current gt2 rules, perhaps with slightly more power in the engine department in order to not have ridiculous closing speeds with the p1's.



i dont really see the point in more than 1 gt class, and gt2 seems affordable, fast and popular at this moment with privateers and manufactures. for me le mans is about prototypes, so im probably biased or just plain wrong perhaps on this

[AU N EGL]

Drivers Licence

P1 - FIA Super, FIA A, FIA B

P2- FIA B, FIA C

GT1 - FIA Super, FIA A, FIA B

GT2 - FIA B, FIA C

GT3 - FIA B, FIA C, FIA D

GT4 - FIA C, FIA D

This also pushes the better drivers in to the P1 or GT1 classes

[johntt]

Originally Posted by minimangler

Hmmm your P1 would ban Pesca as a manufacturer, and your P2 would allow Penske Porsche, which would is a joke to me.

I like the energy recovery idea, and i reckon breaks for alternative fuels like electrics or hydrogen or what have you would be a great idea. Standard Gt ECU sounds good to me, but keep roughly the same power levels- YES PLEASE

I used the following terms to avoid confusion.
Manufactuer: Audi, Pug, Porsche etc
Constructor: Pescarolo, Lola etc

In my P1 section it says constructor chassis only (i.e. Pesca, Lola etc). Manufacturers can supply engines as can specialists such as Zytek and Judd.

re. P2 I would allow one semi-works team in order to allow the manufacturer to develop the car for customers.

[Speed-King]

Good thread and not easy to answer.

P1: Closed cockpit cars, built by big manufacturers, must be made available to privateers for a fixed amount of money, which will hopefully put a cap on the developement costs, while still bolstering the field with a good amount of privateers.

P2: Daytona Prototypes as starting point (i.e. tubeframe-chassis instead of carbonfibre-monocoque), but bigger power-output (>600hp) and smaller cockpit to make them aesthetically more pleasing. Engines from specialist companies allowed.

GT1: Semi-silouette ruleset (like in Super GT or old group 5), that is geared towards the big manufacturers to use highly modified sporty road cars (BMW M3, Audi S5, Ford Mustang, Camaro/Corvette, Challenger, Jaguar XF, probably also Porsche 911)

GT2: Current GT2 rules, but lower homologation numbers to allow cars like the Mosler and other specialist cars into the series.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Drivers Licence

P1 - FIA Super, FIA A, FIA B

P2- FIA B, FIA C

GT1 - FIA Super, FIA A, FIA B

GT2 - FIA B, FIA C

GT3 - FIA B, FIA C, FIA D

GT4 - FIA C, FIA D

This also pushes the better drivers in to the P1 or GT1 classes

Like that idea, seems better than forcing the teams to have one professional and one gentlemen driver in P2 ike the ACO are proposing.

Btw - GTP: Closed, P1/2: Open or closed.

[Nick6]

I posted this about a year ago on another forum.

First step of mine would be to totally redesign the top class. Something similar to a few years ago and many years ago when there were several classes that would race for overall victories.



P1 class - for closed top prototypes with large engines

- allow unlimited rear overhang and 100mm larger wicker (like in pre 04)

- weight will be anywhere from 850 to 915 kg. depending on displancement size

- max displacement 8.0 and 4.0 turbo



P2 class - for open top prototypes with smaller engines and less weight

- weight anywhere from 690 kg. to 750 depending on engine size, and tire size

- larger inlet restrictors

- unlimited rear overhang

- option to run 16" tires with added weight

- Do away with the twin rollhoops, current cars get grandfathered in



GTX class - replaces the current GT1 class

- weight per displacement and tire size, reduce weight from the current GT1 minimums

- option for 16" and 18" tires

- larger restrictors, NA cars run with none

- full tube framed chassis allowed, larger wings at any height, cars must keep the engine layout as homogated and wheelbase(current stretched out GT1s will be grandfathered in) 4wd allowed

- Roof line, windows, and door lenghs must be as homogated otherwise all other body modifications are allowed. Underbody aerodynamics allowed

- max displacement up to 8.5L and 6.0L turbo

- lower homogation minimums than current GT1




Increase the wing sizes on GT2s. Everything else in the class stays the same.



Now for what I will do with IMSA lights.First off is to do away with the spec car idea. Bring in 5 classes: CN, C3, DSR, CSR and Gr. 6 2.0L. The group 6 2.0 will pretty much be the current version of Brit's S2000 class with no spec engine. No turbo engines allowed. DSR and CSR would be opened to only purpose built sportsracers, no converted formula cars. My idea here is to develope chassis manufactures.

[JAG]

IMO the current regs and series set-up is just about perfect, as good as Group C ithe mid to late '80's.

My only change would be to have a single GT class, the rest is tinkering.

[duke_toaster]

P1 - LMP1-Evo cars. Allow familial resemblances to within the brand, but ban silhouettes of specific cars (the 911GT1 was the ugliest thing in existance IMO)
P2 - Current LMP2 cars
GT - Current GT2 with a smaller restrictors and a lower homogolation number.

Championship structure

Three series - ELMS, ALMS and PLMS (Basically, the Asia one but with one or two rounds in Aus). Each has three races before LM24, branded as Le Mans Qualifiers. I'd say 1000km for the LMQs. LMQs do score points for the series as well.

The top two from each class in each LMQ event go to Le Mans - if a car has already qualified, the next car down gets it. In addition to this, to round off a sixty car grid, the top two from each series that haven't already qualified.

LM24 counts for all three championships, but whilst cars from other series aren't elidgable to score points in other series they get them for their series. I.E. First place gets (say) 50 points - if they're from ELMS they get their points in ELMS.

Races after LM24 are for the regional series, but there is a end-of-season finale at Bahrain or somewhere.

In addition to the class championship, the results in each class (E.G. First in GT is equal to first in P1) are use for an overall championship.

Now, if I haven't confused you now, I'll ensure you are now

There will be an overall World Sportscar Championship. However, points in national series would be weighted based on how good that championship is. For example, if the Asian series is weaker someone who dominates that might not be as good as one of the guys duking it out for the top of the European championship. The results from the Bahrain 12 hours and LM24 will be used to calculate a weighting for each class in each series.

The WSC will be awarded to the team who scores the most points in the LM24, Bh12 and their national series (bearing in mind that that will be weighted).

[The Badger]

Better still ..... adopt the old Group C aero rules again !!!

Beautiful looking cars and engines .

[Francesco]

I would have a LMP1-2 and GT class structure with this modifications

LMP1
- no restrictors and Turbo Diesel cars with 4000cc maximum displacement, with all other capacity limits as of today

LMP2
- no changes

GT for cars based on current GT2 rules
- street stock engines with displacement/weight equalisation


and "LMP3" class for national championship, same chassis as LMP2 but with no restrictors and only "street based" engines, like GT2 or Grand-Am ones with capacity limits as of today

[Bob Riebe]

Prototypes:
Read the 1967 World Sports Car Championship as Used at Daytona for all classes.

GT:
Read the SCCA Cat.II Trans-Am rules as used at Road America for all classes.

Sports Racers:
We don't need no stinkin rules.

[sbursi]

Championships

1. World Sportscar Championship-
Ok, so I'm a little nostalgic here, but wouldn't it be great so see this happen. About 25-30 cars will compete exclusively in a series of 6 classic endurance races to determine the World Champions.
Sebring 12h, Monza 1000km, Spa 1000km, LM24h, Road Atlanta 10h (renamed. and 10hinstead of 1000mi.), Suzuka 1000km.

2. Regional Championships-
Comprises of each region's World Championship races, plus others. The top 20 cars in each series (top 4 per class from the previous season’s results) will compete in its region’s WSC shared races for WSC points, bringing a car count of 40-50 to all of the World Sportscar Championship races. In the non-shared races, the rest of the cars will be able to compete.

• American Sportscar Championship (ALMS)-Sebring 12h, Mexico City 4h, Watkins Glen 9h, Lime Rock 4h, MoSport 4h, Road America 6h, Mid Ohio 4h, Road Atlanta 10h, Laguna Seca 4h.
• European Sportscar Championship (LMS)-Monza 1000km, Barcelona 1000km, Spa 1000km, Donington Park 1000km, Brno 1000km., Nurburgring 1000km.
• Pacific Sportscar Championship (East Asia/Oceania) - Shanghai, Fuji Speedway, Sepang, Motegi, Adelaide, Phillip Island, Suzuka 1000km.

The shared race format allows a max of 40-50 cars in each WSC race (red), with half being from the WSC and half from the respective regional championship. At Le Mans, the non-WSC half of the field will comprise of the top 2 cars of each class in the Euro and American championships, and the top car in each class of the Pacific championship, bringing the LM24H car count to a full grid of 50-55. Non WSC teams that perform remarkably well can be invited to compete in the full World Sportscar Championship season.
Also, two traditional "sub-seasons" will be included in the WSC. The "Challenge Mondiale de Vitesse" will be awarded to the points champions of the shorter races: Monza, Spa, and Suzuka. "The Triple Crown of Enducance" will be awarded to the points champions of the three longer races, Sebring, Le Mans, and Road Atlanta.

Points System-
-Points in the regional championships awarded with the current ALMS system for sprint races. Inflated points awarded to teams scoring in the WSC shared races. The WSC championship will award points using the inflated system for ease of calculation. At Le Mans, the WSC system will be again inflated due to the nature of the race.

Classes (Number/Position Light Colors)-
GTP-Grand Touring Prototype- Similar to current closed P1 rules (Peugeot 908, Lola B08/60, prospective P1 coupes)
SP-Sports Prototype-Similar to current open P1 rules, equal performance with GTP (Audi R10, Pescarolo P01, Oreca-Courage LC70, other current open P1 cars)
P2-Prototype 2- open and closed P2 rules with perks for privateers and penalties for manufacturers, slower than GTP/SP (Porsche RS Spyder, Acura ARX-01, Lola B08/80, Oreca-Courage LC75)
GTS- Combination of current GT1 and GT2. It is essentially a version of GT2 that allows more aero and less restrictors. (All current GT1 and GT2 cars, with minor modifications)
GT- Roughly between the speeds of current GT2 and GT3 cars. (Current GT2 and GT3 cars, with minor modifications)

[Joe Taylor]

Realistic idea:
Reign in diesels slightly, otherwise keep prototypes as they are. Phase out GT1 to make GT2 the only major GT class. keep GT3 and 4 as they are at present. Keep championship structure as is, maybe make FIA GT for GT2 and GT3.

Head in the clouds idea:
Prototype: You have 2400 litres of petrol/biodiesel or 2150 litres of diesel or 3500 litres of bio-ethanol. Go...
GT: Engines to be kept at original capacity, but no maximum restriction. Turbo/superchargers allowed if on road going equivalent. Power to be air restricted to around 700hp, weight at 1000kg. Unlike Prototypes, no kinetic energy recovery systems allowed. Limited aero modifications (i.e. current GT1 standards) allowed. Minimum of 25 road cars for large manufacturers or 5 for small manufacturers to be built BEFORE car is legal for racing.
National GT: Top class to be between GT2 and GT3 level. Secondary class to be between GT3 and GT4 level.
Racing structure: 12 round world championship comprising Daytona (Hey, I said head in the clouds), Sebring, Monza 1000km, Le Mans, Spa 24 hours, Norisring 2x1 hour sprint race (in conjunction with DTM weekend), Silverstone 1000km, Suzuka 1000km, Petit Le Mans, Laguna Seca 4 hours, Mil Milhas. Local entries for each race to be allowed/encouraged

[Purist]

Bob, I'm really not familiar with the Cat II rules. BTW, were the old Gr. 6 and Gr. 7 cars not allowed turbos in WSC trim, or did turbos just not come to the fore until Porsche cleaned up in Can-Am.

Now to the topic at hand:
LMP1- Open or closed prototypes, manufacturers run coupes, constructors can run either coupes or spyders. Maximum displacement of 7.0-litres or 4.0-litre turbo, minimum weight of 850-900kg based on engine size, max power output roughly 750hp. Restrictor breaks for constructor engines and production-based engines. Coupe aero rules more optimized for low drag/lower downforce, spyder aero rules to tend toward higher downforce/higher drag. Diesels to run slightly narrower rear tires to negate some of the inherent torque advantage.

LMP2- Constructor-built spyders with constructor or manufacturer engines. One semi-works car per manufacturer allowed. LMP2s run equivalently less drag/lower downforce compared to LMP1 spyders. Maximum displacement of 3.5-litres or 2.0-litre turbo, minimum weight of 675-750kg based on engine size, max power output roughly 575hp. Composite bodywork allowed, composite chasses not permitted.

LMP1/2- Undertray aero allowed along the lines of what is currently in the rules. Mandatory titanium firewall between driver and engine, and driver and fuel cell(s).

GT1- Silhouette-type cars, or heavily modified, engine displacement of >5.0-8.0-litres or 4.5-6.0-litre supercharged or 2.0-4.0-litre turbo. Minimum weight of 1200-1300kg based on engine size, max power output roughly 700hp. Front wheel and rear diffusers allowed, full-blown tunnels not permitted. Cockpit shape/dimensions must remain stock, wheel and engine mounts must remain as stock, hence the engine and wheels must remain where they are on the road car (unlless it is determined that limited changes in these areas are needed for a given car). Composites allowed front and rear, but not in the cockpit/crash cell area for bodywork or structural purposes.

GT2- Same as present, except minimum weight scale starts at 1200kg instead of 1125kg, perhaps a slight power boost given the extra weight, 5.0-litre maximum displacement, and no turbo cars (are there any in the class currently?). Also, no composites allowed (assuming that they even are now).

To cover a wider range of production models, you really do need the two GT classes. Let's face it, you don't put an atmospheric Porsche 911 up against a 7.0-litre Corvette or 5.5-6.0-litre Ferrari in the same class (unless the Porsches are well-supported and the Corvettes are being run by a clearly inferior outfit, Le Mans 2003 comes to mind).

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Purist

Bob, I'm really not familiar with the Cat II rules.
BTW, were the old Gr. 6 and Gr. 7 cars not allowed turbos in WSC trim, or did turbos just not come to the fore until Porsche cleaned up in Can-Am.

Think IMSA AAGT or GTX only slightly more conservative; i.e. pick-up points could not be changed and they were absolutely based on homologations of parts and spec. from firewall of the street car.
All was measured with a tolerance of less than one quarter inch from the firewall.
The car that ran at LeMans in 1976 ran in Trans-Am Cat. II later.

Up through 1967 the World Sports Car Champioship, made connection to the street with the J rule, but other wise was quite open.
Porsche is the one who really opened the pandora box with blowers, even though if that had failed, they had a huge NA flat sixteen ready.

Purist I believe the current contrived clap-trap rules will never be any better than they are now, and they have never worked as well as the ones that came before them, including earlier versions of said same ACO contrived equalization.
As the saying goes, Less is More.
Bob

[The Badger]

The most talked about series doing the rounds is still Group C !!!

What was so wrong with that ? Apart from 2 classes ..... a fuel formula which did work fine ..... the aero looked great , the engines were a mix of amazing music to the ears .... and it was up to the manufacturers to get their fuel formula up to spec .

Bring Group C back I say !!!

Great cars & great races ...... what more do you want ?

Do I hear a vote for Group C ?

Just look at who was there ..... Porsche , Jag , Toyota , Nissan , Mazda , Benz ..... Spice and a lot more constructors who could see that it was a good formula , need i say more ?

What was wrong with a fuel formula anyway ?

Come on Ayse ..... say your piece mate !!!

[Dutton]

The one thing to consider is the implication that the re-introduction of GC may have in contemporary terms? The problem with reactionary thoughts is they often tend to be based on assumptions that the past can be recreated in the present. Just because GC existed as it did then does not mean it ever could now.

Do not get me wrong: I have nothing even close to enough knowledge on sportscar racing to be able to propose responses to what I have written, but, on a conceptual level, I believe such things to be relevant to consider.

[zac510]

The idea that reintroduction of Group C rules would suddenly cause manufacturers to run back and join sportscar racing is quite fanciful.

I'm sure from a business perspective leaving the core class structure in place is probably (I'm not a businessman) the best way to attract manufacturers; as the external influences of finance, cost and marketing attractions of each class change, numbers in each class will ebb and flow like darwin's theory. But overall LM will always have no problems fielding a full grid regardless of the class makeup so we don't need to worry about the size of the grid.

History doesn't seem to show sudden rule changes causing mass influxes of competitors in any racing category.

I'd still make little tweaks to the class rules every year, ie fuel tank, underbody, etc. The engineers always ask for stability which is the perfect reason not to give it to them :P

[isynge]

Originally Posted by The Badger

The most talked about series doing the rounds is still Group C !!!

...

What was wrong with a fuel formula anyway ?

Before we get too dewy eyed about Group C and the 1980s it's worth thinking about how it was considered at the time.

You'll forgive me for not having precise quotes related to this at hand, being at work, but if you trawl through some of the rapportage from the period it's a long way from the ringing endorsement the benefit of hindsight has granted us. In particular headlines like "Porsche economy run" (from GPI if I remember rightly) and a series of editorials in Motor Sport demonstrate some of the disaffection that these spectacular cars weren't let off the leash.

It is perhaps telling though that in bored hours it's the footage from the '80s that seem to find their way onto the television...

[Option1]

I'm another that hankers for a return to Group C, but must admit the wet blanket of reality as put so eloquently by isynge, zac, Dutton and others does need consideration.

I must also admit that in the end it did appear as though Group C should really have been renamed Group Porsche and that domination caused its demise. The problem is that the same thing is close to happening with Audi - perceptually at least.

So to sum up, my answer is that I have no answer.

I would resist removing open cars from P1 in favour of closed cockpits. For me, it should always be about variety. Variety of types of cars in a class and variety of manufacturers.

Neil

[Purist]

Zac, you need some level of stability to attract participants, particularly "constructors", who can't retool nearly as often as the big manufacturers.

Drivers particularly hated the fuel formula of Group C; just ask Derek Bell or Hans Stuck about it.

And, of course, you're out of luck once the cost of competition exceeds what the manufacturers providing customer cars can or are willing to pay. Once the Porsche 962s couldn't keep pace, it was the beginning of the end for Group C. And right now, we don't have any big manufacturers in LMP1 providing customer cars.