FIA FLAG RULES

[nomad_n]

Does anyone in the FIA actaully think about the rules that they put out for the flaggies.... I.e no stationary yellow before a double waved yellow. Or letting the flaggies wave the blue flag for a lapped car (without being told to from race control).... I did this at the latest V8 car round and got told of from my comms guy because he hadn't been told to blue the lapped car....

[chezza]

Maybe the Gold Book?

[Woolley]

You've probably seen my comments in the Bathurst thread, and this is a particular hobby horse of mine. FIA don't actually specify no Blues unless instructed except for F1. V8SA have picked this up, though, and as far as I can tell, do it pretty badly (for which the poor flaggies cop a bagging every time).

FIA do, of course, think very carefully about the flag signals, so as to make it as simple as possible for someone who's never been to a race meeting to manage when F1 turns up on his doorstep because he lives in a country that's willing to throw money at Bernie. Sadly, they don't think about them in such a way as to properly fulfil their own safety protocols.

If I had the chance I would like to stand Bernie and Max at the edge of a gravel trap in the glare of oncoming traffic while offering the only choice they give me of a single waved yellow on the exit of a blind bend 6 feet ahead of where they're working. (Yes, I know we can upgrade to double waved yellows, but only [officially] if race control tells us, and it's still on the same blind exit of the bend.

In my honest (and very strong opinion) FIA flag rules and blues under instruction only are complete rubbish and should be resisted as strongly as possible.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Woolley

You've probably seen my comments in the Bathurst thread, and this is a particular hobby horse of mine.

The thread in question is here;

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110392

All 7 pages of it

Have a quick look through it and remember not everyone contributing is a marshal and some are clueless about what they are talking about, this is the Internet after all

You can see my opinion on that thread so I wont repeat it here but feel free to add your thoughts in this thread.

[nomad_n]

Well PVDA I'm a flaggie and personally I think the rules are ******* stupid.... to give an example: At Indy in the weekend I was on flag point 1.1 (the exit of turn 1), now the chicane is a blind corner and we had a number of cars spin into the corner with only a single yellow flag - I did question this and the chief told me that he can see my point but the rules are the only way to go from a dble yellow is to a red.....

[onelapdown]

I spoke to some flaggies at Donington recently as I'm a trainee with eyes on eventually becoming a flaggie and we pretty much agreed that the FIA system is a simpler system for simpler marshals. I can't see rhyme nor reason why they don't just adopt best practice but the FIA and logical decisions are very infrequent bedfellows.

[Hepatic]

Watch the GP2 race from Monza as well, car off in gravel (lesmo 1 i think) and flag point isn't too far up from where the car stopped. Really needed post up from him to have a yellow out too to extend the "safe zone" as they were snatching it, but FIA rules didn't allow them to. Result was zero reduction in speed and massive risk to the guys recovering the car (ok so i know GP2 drivers are renound for not slowing anyway, but the point still stands even if they do obey flags).

Happens all the time at FIA reg events but i don't see anyone being able to influence them to change it. Drivers certainly won't, it might be in aid of their safety as well as ours but it shuts down more of the track...

[PieMan]

Changing direction slightly, what does anybody think of the flagging arrangements on 'road courses' in the USA?

Typically on one flag point per turn, at the entry, so nothing (for a green) at the exit and you're unlikely to be able to see the previous 'station' because that's at the entry to the previous turn (i.e. round the corner about a mile away if you are at the end of the long straight at Sebring).

The driver will see:

Nothing
Waved yellow
Incident
Nothing

Obviously this gets much more 'interesting' when there is more than one incident around the track at the same time.

I feel a question for Andy Wallace (BMMC Club Night, White Horse PH, Silverstone Village, 18 November at 8pm) coming out of this.

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by onelapdown

I spoke to some flaggies at Donington recently as I'm a trainee with eyes on eventually becoming a flaggie and we pretty much agreed that the FIA system is a simpler system for simpler marshals. I can't see rhyme nor reason why they don't just adopt best practice but the FIA and logical decisions are very infrequent bedfellows.

Funny you should mention Donington, at the renault world series I was on flag and given some very dangerous instructions from race control, ie take in your yellow flag even with the marshals on track, lets say I had radio problems after that!
if I'm flagging the marshals i'm protecting are my responsibility, I'm the one that's got to live with it if someone gets killed

[Eddy V]

At Spa they follow the FIA rules for all events, marshals on track or not. I hate those rules as they are plain dangerous, just a waved yellow isn't safe enough. The only place were they use an extra warning now is the bottom of Eau Rouge.
FIA only cares about F1 and think that every driver from whatever series reacts like a F1 driver.

I always tell the flag marshals to use a stationary yellow, whatever happens. I care about the marshals on the next post as well.

[nomad_n]

Originally Posted by PieMan

Changing direction slightly, what does anybody think of the flagging arrangements on 'road courses' in the USA?

Typically on one flag point per turn, at the entry, so nothing (for a green) at the exit and you're unlikely to be able to see the previous 'station' because that's at the entry to the previous turn (i.e. round the corner about a mile away if you are at the end of the long straight at Sebring).

The driver will see:

Nothing
Waved yellow
Incident
Nothing

Obviously this gets much more 'interesting' when there is more than one incident around the track at the same time.

I feel a question for Andy Wallace (BMMC Club Night, White Horse PH, Silverstone Village, 18 November at 8pm) coming out of this.

Well you could always adopt the kiwi way of doing things.... at the exit of the corner put a cone there and if the incident is before the cone then when the drivers go past the cone they can race again.

But I'm sure when these people make the flag rules they aren't in the field actually getting wet and getting abused by the drivers if it doesn't got here way...

[Mr_Cool]

I still maintain that we need the stationary yellow. There are plent of occasions where you need it.

[Richard Sneader]

I am no fan of FIA flag signals. I think it is to basic and not effective on most tracks. It seems to be in the UK at FIA events if a flaggie gets it wrong or whatever then they get a ticking off from a muppet not on the track seeing the same view as the flaggie on the track. Camera's eh( another subject for another thread). So when abroad and you see poorly dressed marshals running about with flags etc at FIA events and there does not seem to be control how does this happen.
Simple answer: if you cant trust me to make my own decisions dont put me there. That will cause a few issues. I am at the Vallelunga Autodrome this weekend so I will have a nosey at what they do and report back.
RS

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

if I'm flagging the marshals i'm protecting are my responsibility, I'm the one that's got to live with it if someone gets killed

Let's just clarify something here. Flags DO NOT 'protect' marshals, they warn drivers. While nobody should go trackside unless a yellow flag is being shown, the yellow flag does not make the situation safe.

If race control want to withdraw the yellow flag, fair enough...I'll withdraw the marshals!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Richard Sneader

I am no fan of FIA flag signals. I think it is to basic and not effective on most tracks. It seems to be in the UK at FIA events if a flaggie gets it wrong or whatever then they get a ticking off from a muppet not on the track seeing the same view as the flaggie on the track. Camera's eh( another subject for another thread). So when abroad and you see poorly dressed marshals running about with flags etc at FIA events and there does not seem to be control how does this happen.
Simple answer: if you cant trust me to make my own decisions dont put me there. That will cause a few issues. I am at the Vallelunga Autodrome this weekend so I will have a nosey at what they do and report back.
RS

Its not so much a matter of trust of Richard, as Flaggies, we have varying amounts of experience and knowledge. I have only been Flagging for about 15 years but still have an open mind (look in one ear and you see daylight out tuther!).

To put this discussion in context, in Australia, there are a small number of meetings where FIA rules the roost (FI, A1?, V8s and Indy) at most other meetings, the CoC allows a more commonsense approach and attitude to Flags.

As for withdrawing Marshals if the Yellows are not allowed...go for it!! Nothing is more important then Driver and Marshal SAFETY.

[White flag man]

How about using double waved yellows, if you have them, then surely the post before will have to wave a single yellow. Race control may ask questions, but it will be safer for marshals and drivers.

[nomad_n]

Originally Posted by White flag man

How about using double waved yellows, if you have them, then surely the post before will have to wave a single yellow. Race control may ask questions, but it will be safer for marshals and drivers.

Unfortunitly FIA have stated in thier regs that there will bo no stationary yellow at the preceding point..... or at the COC decision that there will be a mirror point.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by White flag man

How about using double waved yellows, if you have them, then surely the post before will have to wave a single yellow.

In the good old days a double waved yellow would've been preceeded by double stationary AND that preceeded by a single stationary yellow so they get plenty of warning of a big problem ahead.

Trouble is that here in Australia a senior CAMS employee took it upon himself to implement the full FIA single post only yellow rules FOR ALL EVENTS without going through the usual consultation process that would've killed it off before it got that high.

The other problem is that they've gradually dumbed down the yellow rules to the stage that they are almost useless.

[PieMan]

Originally Posted by nomad_n

...FIA have stated in thier regs that there will bo no stationary yellow at the preceding point...

Correct - if a yellow is shown before a double waved then it would also be waved.

The FIA flag regs can be viewed at the excellent www.flag-marshal.org.uk

[PieMan]

Originally Posted by nomad_n

Well you could always adopt the kiwi way of doing things.... at the exit of the corner put a cone there and if the incident is before the cone then when the drivers go past the cone they can race again.

Good idea but what if the incident is after the cone - or more significantly if there is something before the cone and also something afterwards? (e.g. two cars make contact in a corner, one stops on the track there and the other half way along the next straight).

[Woolley]

I had the same thought. Incident should be followed by a green, but of course with limited marshals sometimes the green takes a while to come out if at all depending on whether the flaggie was facing the other way at the time...!

I've been known to make my own decision on going up to doubles, and I've been known to decide that the conditions are dangerous (I'm sure I saw debris?) and add a preceding waved. If I believe it's valid that the drivers should have additional warning and it may help the marshals' safety, then I'll do it. In moderation, of course, else you get the crying wolf syndrome at which point the drivers may ignore them completely.

Does anyone else agree with me that a waved green at every post following a safety car is the most pointless signal of all? The drivers know they're racing, it prevents a blue being shown at a time when it's probably most useful, and it's something you have to put down before you can use the yellow should you need to.

[MDF]

There is nothing to stop you showing a blue flag in place of the green flag, particularly if it is in the interest of safety. Both the green and flags are for information of the driver, neither are mandatory signals - unless in F1 for cars being lapped.

[nomad_n]

Originally Posted by PieMan

Good idea but what if the incident is after the cone - or more significantly if there is something before the cone and also something afterwards? (e.g. two cars make contact in a corner, one stops on the track there and the other half way along the next straight).

Then you are in trouble lol. You go back to the old rules.....

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by MDF

There is nothing to stop you showing a blue flag in place of the green flag, particularly if it is in the interest of safety. Both the green and flags are for information of the driver, neither are mandatory signals - unless in F1 for cars being lapped.

I seem to remember an old saying "Blue & Green will never be seen".

If a green or yellow is out you cant use the blue.

[Woolley]

Not least because your hands are already full.