Historic Racing and Historic Racing Today Forum-Where is it going ?

[john ruston]

Having just returned from Abu Dhabi earlier in the week where they are messing with their new mini Monaco circuit and taking about Historic's,24 HR races and such I arrived at a bit of a do in Provence where there was a collection of a few of the top historic racers.
As we continued to have the odd glass or two the discussion started about historics and as a couple are irregular contributors to this forum the question was asked what was it all about .
The subject of the Donington Masters meeting came up and lack of entries.It seemed many had committed to race but did not show .Why should Ron continue to do a good job if he has no backing that he can rely on from the people he is trying to help? If all the organisers face the same problem why continue.
On the subject of hooky cars the feeling was that they will continue to prosper until someone does something about them and with entries in short supply the chances are slim.
The opinions about this Forum were interesting with one of the assembled crew thinking that many decent threads were started but it all usually degenerates into drivel after 16 to 20 replies with the Forum Mafia taking over!I was included in this gang along with some others ,Masters PR club etc.
My excuse was on some days I had nothing better to do and liked a good stir!Couldn't speak about the rest but from past experience know that it is bloody boring sitting in downtown Doha with nothing else better to do.On this subject was told that Lord of Qatar is really good bloke and has his heart in right place.Perfect reference from superstar so I must be careful.
The JT reports had a star but the lack of opinions about races other than Tin Tops and 60/70's things was unfortunate
The discussion and argument went downhill after that with the rose winning.
Idea of this ramble is where does the assembled throng think Historics and in particular this forum is heading
To make it interesting and sensible only people with less than 1000 posts should be allowed to answer .
Am obviously at a lose end this morning.

[John Turner]

Well. it's alright for some, gadding about the world with not a lot to do!

Historic racing is a broad church, and has never been better catered for than now, really. Also I believe that there are number of initiatives around to add to an already over crowded calendar but others may fall by the wayside. The recession has had an impact although, on the whole, I think our hobby has stood up well. It was only one of the reasons why the Masters Donington meeting had inadequate numbers of entries and I don't necessarily think that it was a typical Master event.

I agree that the 'dodgy' cars issue is one still to be addressed but I do think that there have been encouraging signs over the last 12 months. We have seen action taken at a couple of meetings this year.

As for this forum, I hope that it continues to thrive and attract new members. It is actually regularly a top ten performer in numbers of contributors/viewers on the whole of the Ten Tenth site. Naturally, in any discussion, we get sidetracked but going off topic actually breaches the rules, although we tend not to get too carried away with enforcing it if we can get the thread back on topic. Sometimes, we are able to split the conversation off into a new thread. Are you suggesting that we (in practice that's me, really) should run a tighter ship? It's not my way really, but if the consensus is that it is run too softly, a firmer stance could be taken, I guess, although, as a self confessed member of this 'forum mafia' you could become one of the victims of a stricter regime, JR! I know that you like to play Mr Grumpy from time to time but what I'd like to see from you personally, is some more positive stuff about your view of our mutual interest, since you are one of those contributing to it. Your contribution to the recent BDC meeting at Silverstone has been praised in a number of quarters, so you are not just a 'grumps'.

Incidentally, I do occasionally throw some opinions into my pictorial reviews, but I rarely get any bites. An example was my comments on the Classic about the Cooper Monaco. Maybe it's case of 'oh no, we've been there, done that'! However, times/circumstances/attitudes move on, and we need to be revisiting old issues if the old solutions are no longer appropriate or relevant.

Any views on how this forum can develop further is of course welcome, but they have to constructive and achievable.

[Mike Bell]

JR, I presume the Masters Donington meeting referred to it is the recent August one, which was a late addition to the original calendar. For me, having dug deep to enter as many of their events as possible this year (including the Algarve, which will just about bankrupt me but it's my birthday!) 'throwing in' an extra one half way through the season wasn't going to work. If some had committed to race but didn't show, that is disappointing, but presumably they had paid entry fees?

As for the forum, I think JT has summed it up nicely. I only regularly visit / contribute to this and a couple of club ones, and straying off topic seems to be normal. Sometimes a little humour helps, just as in a face to face conversation!

[Al Weyman]

I think the problem is a lot of the topics have been done to death many times over. With great respect to the man I cancelled Motorsport because I just got fed up with reading about the old greats like Jim Clark and I am just sitting here contemplating going out to the workshop to work on my fleet and thought I would have a browse through the latest Octane that was delivered the other day. Now last issue was all about old Porches, been there done that, this issue is all about Cobras, just how much can any one write or in fact want to read about a limited run sports car however fabulous it was, after a while it gets boring and I guess thats the bottom line.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by john ruston

The opinions about this Forum were interesting with one of the assembled crew thinking that many decent threads were started but it all usually degenerates into drivel after 16 to 20 replies with the Forum Mafia taking over!I was included in this gang along with some others ,Masters PR club etc.
My excuse was on some days I had nothing better to do and liked a good stir!Couldn't speak about the rest but from past experience know that it is bloody boring sitting in downtown Doha with nothing else better to do.On this subject was told that Lord of Qatar is really good bloke and has his heart in right place.Perfect reference from superstar so I must be careful.
The JT reports had a star but the lack of opinions about races other than Tin Tops and 60/70's things was unfortunate
The discussion and argument went downhill after that with the rose winning.
Idea of this ramble is where does the assembled throng think Historics and in particular this forum is heading
To make it interesting and sensible only people with less than 1000 posts should be allowed to answer .
Am obviously at a lose end this morning.

I think you've got it just about correct with regards the forum Mafia, there are a few people who put a lot of other posters off because the minority may not agree with what's being said by others.

One other thing is no one seems to ever discuss, apart from maybe Roger W, what cars they actually own or drive and are possibly too busy worrying about what other people are doing or drive.

[Al Weyman]

One other thing is no one seems to ever discuss, apart from maybe Roger W, what cars they actually own or drive and are possibly too busy worrying about what other people are doing or drive.

Ha ha can't be us then Tim as I never stop going on about me ruddy old Camaros, or Terry on his 'B's, Peter on his Capri, Zef on GT Cortinas and you on old Jags. :-)

[Tim the Grey]

So would something with a little more 'opinion' and slightly fewer 'results' appeal, Tim?

Only I am about to write up Classic and BDC for the 'family' online magazine, and my personal feeling is it should err away from mere factual reporting, there's lots of folk doing that better already! I had Roger, and Joe Twyman all lined up, and then life, and laptop failure (yes, again!) interrupted, and I'm only TODAY back online, and thinking about such things... But I wanted to slant it at how it FELT jumping from a Hesketh into a Cooper, or vice versa, and is Rahal good at sharing a drive?

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Ha ha can't be us then Tim as I never stop going on about me ruddy old Camaros, or Terry on his 'B's, Peter on his Capri, Zef on GT Cortinas and you on old Jags. :-)

Fair enough about Peter, Zef, Terry and you and I'm not allowed to talk about my car as it isn't real.
So apart from Peter, Zef, Terry, Roger and yourself what does everyone else drive or own?

[Moosehead]

Originally Posted by falcemob

So apart from Peter, Zef, Terry, Roger and yourself what does everyone else drive or own?

As per my signature so anyone can find me at meetings

[Al Weyman]

And I have seen it in the flesh and can vouch its a very nice example too!

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>>>what does everyone else drive or own

Guess!

But isn't this the OT drift JR was on about?????????

[jonners]

talk about being hijacked by the usual mafia....

don't want to sound negative but the level of debate on here is variable - too often good topics go nowhere just because decent contributions get ignored if made by an unfamiliar voice

within just a fw posts it's just the same old same old banter about not much really

there's a place for that of course but...

[john ruston]

Thought that the occasional posters might get a chance to tell the usual bods where the forum could improve but seems not.
Understand the JT contribution as he is the headmaster but you others with thousands of posts are confirming the points raised by the odd posting gang that spoke to me on Thursday.
I am told that Masters had commitment from enough people to warrant a meeting in August and they sorted it and then people failed to show.It's not on if entrants want these organisations to continue.
Let you lot continue to ramble on as we are now switching to drivel time posts at about 15.Managed to get there earlier with this topic.
Waste of time taking about my cars as no one on here seems to understand real old bangers except JT and a handful of others.Am not interested in writing about my own cars,unless asked ,as it's a bit like playing with yourself.
Can I thank JT and you other three answering the question asked
Bottom line seems to be carry on as before and twenty of us can go on and on about nothing.
As an aside the Octane bit about 356 Porsches was reasonable apart from the glaring factual errors and I will make a point of not lending them any more cars now I know the reception these articles get.
When is the next Masters meeting in UK as I can't wait for another riveting episode of 'Adventurers of a SC Driver'

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by john ruston

When is the next Masters meeting in UK as I can't wait for another riveting episode of 'Adventurers of a SC Driver'

John, It's Oct 25th (which I'm sure you know anyway) and guess what- at Mallory- so we can discuss the dangers (or not) of racing there as well.......

Don't often read Octane but have been impressed when I do. Enjoyed the piece about your 356 in C&SC though!

Sorry you won't be at See Red to broaden my knowledge of 'real old bangers'- but I'm sure the catering will be better in Gstaad.......

[Al Weyman]

talk about being hijacked by the usual mafia....

don't want to sound negative but the level of debate on here is variable - too often good topics go nowhere just because decent contributions get ignored if made by an unfamiliar voice

within just a fw posts it's just the same old same old banter about not much really

there's a place for that of course but...

Well hush my mouth do we have a bandwidth problem here or something as I don't see anyone else bothering to answer and are those silent majority you talk of really so put off by a few off cuff comments, must be sensitive souls is all I can say but not wishing to put them off further I won't bother to answer on this thread again if that the case so they have the floor, take it away.

Oh and my Octane comments (and I will keep up my subscription as its a fair mag) was simply to highlight there is only so many times you can repeat an article on an old model or past era drivers not having a go at the Porsche or the Cobra they jsut happened to be featured in the last two issues.

BTW John yes I would be interested to know what cars you run, since I have seen your posts on here over quite a few years I genuinely do not know what you are into or what cars you own or run and have often wondered I for one would think it would make interesting reading plus some photos if possible.

[Rotary7]

talk about being hijacked by the usual mafia....

don't want to sound negative but the level of debate on here is variable - too often good topics go nowhere just because decent contributions get ignored if made by an unfamiliar voice

within just a fw posts it's just the same old same old banter about not much really

there's a place for that of course but...

As a newbie, I have to agree with the above. It's not that the 'mafia' don't make relevant and interesting contributions, it's more that they've read or said it all before and find the rehashing of the same old topics a bit tiresome. What they may be forgetting is that it's not old for us newer members, and that we may not want to search out previous threads, but rather reintroduce them. It's rather like attending a large gathering of likeminded people, there will be all these small groups in conversation, many of the subjects which you've heard discussed to death before - just move on to the next conversation. If none of them interest you enough, go home to the workshop and fix something on your 'to do' list.

[Al Weyman]

go home to the workshop and fix something on your 'to do' list.

Excellent suggestion, I have a Camaro in the workshop that needs a spanner check before Rockingham next week and an engine in bits for the IROC-Z so better get on with it, enjoy the thread I'm out (finally this time) so come on you guys contribute!!! :-)

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by jonners

talk about being hijacked by the usual mafia....

don't want to sound negative but the level of debate on here is variable - too often good topics go nowhere just because decent contributions get ignored if made by an unfamiliar voice

within just a few posts it's just the same old same old banter about not much really

there's a place for that of course but...

Originally Posted by john ruston

Thought that the occasional posters might get a chance to tell the usual bods where the forum could improve but seems not.

John, someone did put a point across and it was ignored straight away.

[brands]

I use the Historic forum mainly to gather information about up coming meetings and news and reviews from events I've just attended.
As a couple of posters have said the actual debate on here is limited and outsiders, especially mere spectators, are ignored most of the time.

Still the forum is very worthwhile for me for the info and if I want to chat about historic racing issues I only have to wait until next I meet JT and we can put the world to right.

[john ruston]

Open it to all as the idea of occasional posters seems to have come and gone.
Answer to Al's question.As far as my cars are concerned they have been covered in BDC Meeting Silverstone,Silverstone Festival and last years Le Mans Classic reports on here.Most of four cam 356's have been borrowed by glossies in last few months for articles and we will have three/four cars at Spa.Anticipate usual seven cars at Le Mans Classic next year but will only be involved in putting two teams together before anyone thinks I am involving myself in that bunfest again.
Do not need to cover that again.Get all the rubbish sorted on this thread.
Now where do you all go from here?

[grantp]

Hmm.

It's difficult to predict the life (or death) of a forum since there is little history to go on. In general lout there in Webland forums come, forums go, their population changes over time with, perhaps, a few of the original stalwarts popping up from time to time as the forum (and the original posters) age. Revisiting old ground is only good for past superstars on 'chat shows', whatever they were.

As has been suggested already in relation to magazines, content can be re-cycled BUT, absent anything new and startling, the afficianados (and a few total anoraks) will have seen and absorbed it all before. They may even remember the articles/discussions in detail.

So, for a forum to appear to be alive and fresh rather than regurgitating old content it needs new blood - both subject matter and correspondents. By definition that can be quite a tall order for historic content constrained by rules related to historical accuracy.

Why do we have Historic motor sport at all?

Obviously part of the reason is that people have an interest. No interest no cars, no sport. Will the current generations (say the under 30s) produce enough individuals to keep the whole concept going? (cars, engineering knowledge, organizations to create and run meetings, marshals who are interested enough to want to attend ....)

To some extent I think historic anything requires, if it is to achieve a viable level of popular interest, at least some continuity from now back into the past. In motor sport terms this perhaps means a route by which those who become involved at the 'present' level can, if they so choose, follow technology back to past times and enjoy the experience.

So is that still possible?

These days younger enthusiasts are weaned on one make series and vehicles intended pretty much only for dedicated use in that series. Little of the technology since the late 80s, maybe earlier, is the sort that one could dabble with in your garage rather than watching TV. Have we lost that backward link? Will recent racing technology ever be viable in historic terms with a degree of historic 'correctness' that we often see discussed here?

Those of us of a 'certain age', or at least those I have met personally, who are motor sport enthusiasts seem to be enjoying re-living the content of their younger lives. So anyone older than about 40 today can probably still satisfy that enthusiasm. But if you are thirty now and then consider what your 'historic' interest might be in about 20 years from now, what have you got that is of your era?

Now consider someone at around age 30 and that their base line might be 10 years ago. Their historic interest may be 20 yeas out from now - not too long really. What will they have going for them? Think in terms of the re-engineering that the Euroboss guys have to apply to 10 year old F1 cars to be in a position to put them on track.

The carbon fibre computer control age seems to be shifting the basis for the ground rules and costs against a background of eco-nonsense and urbanization creep that is not going to make involvement any easier.

Today we have one make (or virtually one make) series dominating much of the 'current modern' sport. This is not a totally new development - there have been non-manufacturer originated one make series for some decades - think original Minis for example, though perhaps not the FordSport Mexicos.

How many 'Historic Mini only' races have there been? (Yes I know that old style Minis still have active series of their own but they are not Historic in the terms we are discussing here. Or are they?)

Chassis are intended to last for several years before they are updated or simply changed. Part of the interest of the Historic world - the variety on offer - disappears. Indeed availability may be an issue anyway if relatively small numbers of chassis are managed by comparatively large organizations with little obvious outlet to private individuals allowed to do their own thing with them.

Will FPS ever have an Historic role? Or for that matter the 2009 version of F2?

Will Dallara offer a service for historic customers needing new carbon fibre chassis and suspension components?

Sports Cars may offer a better opportunity for variety and availability although I guess that beyond Ferrari and Porsche the options may be daunting. Astons may offer something though more likely to appear in the AMOC meetings I would guess.

Maybe Historic Radicals?

If younger people don't discover an interest in older technology it will slowly fade away to demonstration and museum only level as time passes and the existing protagonists and their motivating heroes depart this earth - sadly a seemingly rather regular event these days.

If, as I hypothesize, there is a discontinuity at some point related to 1990s technology what we currently see as the historic scene may be cast off to a very specialized backwater compared to how it is currently and there may be no historic history at all for 21st century motor sport technology.

I guess most of us won't be around by then (and until close to that point one would suppose that what we currently have will largely be supported by those that ARE currently around) and so it won't matter much to us ... but will it matter to the younger generations and will they find a way around the problems in order to satisfy their own needs for revisiting their younger days?

[simon drabble]

In answer to JT and others comments about thread hijacked by the regulars I had hoped that the "Lighter Side" thread would become home to these posts.
Inevitably on a forum there are those who post for the sake of it and the danger is as others have said that a good thread stops being read as a result and a relevant post is lost. We are all guilty to a varying degree and maybe we should all think before posting as to how the post will enhance the thread....
All that being said I was disappointed not to see Terence driving the SC in the Spa GP with all the in car shots ;o)

[terence]

Thanks Simon,you just won me £50.

[aws]

Jon, as someone who prepares cars for customers i should be happy that its all getting more serious and people want to win, yes we all do, but at what cost, 2.1 ltr MGB's FIA spec!!! we all like to read the rules our way or just ignore tham but it has to stop,
part of the problem maybe the organisers, there was a time when clubs were run for the members by the members, but a lot of racing is run as a business, this is great because if something goes wrong you can moan at them but the bottom line is its a business and they need to make money to keep going and they cant afford to turn half the grid away (not saying half the cars are bent .. but you know what i mean). I was at Donington and for sure they couldnt of made much that day.

I guess its down to the owners and preparers to sort out the cars, if you want something with all the twiddle bits, bells n whistles then you should have a radical not a historic, otherwise you just end up with very expensive silhouette, we have to keep these cars as close to 'as was' as possible as said before cant see many historic radicals in 20 years time

[terence]

Well said AWS,we all know what the problems are and where they come from,usually over inflated ego's are one source!As you mentioned them,the MGB has been targeted by Masters this season [I only use this as a reference before anyone get's on their high horse] to the point of imposing the 50kg ballast penalty for those cars running more than the prescribed [FIA] limit of 1853cc.What has happened? most of the regular Masters cars have gone elsewhere to the point that Masters are now trying to get more Bs on the grid [only legal one's thank you] this alone points to the fact there were obviously quite a few bent one's to start with! As you said,it is down to the owners/prepper's to put their faith in their own ability as drivers/engine builders not to have to rely on cheating to get the job done.As has been said many times over the years,it still boil's down to the Organizer to police these cars whether they are E-Type's,Cobra's whatever.It's a very difficult task to sort out the bent cars/maintain grid size's purely because there are soooo many of them.

Now I'll stand back waiting for the incoming!