Anyone else looking at the Marussia v Caterham battle this weekend?

[spider]

Since they've come into F1, despite their comparatively woeful efforts, I've watched with a level of interest the battle of the new teams.

The race last year for 10th place, at the final round between the two was actually excellent - as Petrov got by the then soon-to-be Caterham driver Pic in the dying moments of the race. Glock being involved with an incident and Heikki being in similar trouble too.

This year, with a bunch of rookies (Pic is still relatively so) and both teams having KERS it's been a good battle at the back. Bianchi's done his reputation no harm whatsoever, and VDG has gradually got the upper-hand on Pic, which is a bit of a surprise.

Heading into Cosworth's last race and with Marussia in the driving seat, it'll be interesting to see who'll come out on top. Personally I want Bianchi to help the Anglo-Russian team over the line and bag that 10th spot, ahead of Caterham - as to be frank, that team has had Renault power, a far greater budget to Marussia, and yet it's still struggled to get ahead of the smaller Manor Motorsport (rebranded) team.

I'm sure most will be focusing on other things this weekend, but personally I'm hoping the camera's give a little love to a properly competitive race down the field...

[chillibowl]

i am now! forgot how close it came for these two teams last year. Petrov won his team a lot of money last year.

i quickly looked and i think Marussia has a 13th place finish in Malaysia. dont know how any countback would work if Caterham managed to finish 13th in Brazil but yeah surely Marussia have the advantage. indeed impressive considering the disadvantages you pointed out they have to Caterham.

[andrewc]

Pic won his NEW team a lot of money last year.

or the other way of looking at it!

[Nikki Katz]

I've always liked these two teams and I still feel that the new teams have been shafted a bit by the budget caps not happening. It is exciting to watch them battling for a possible 12th place finish on Sunday, much more so than Vettel blocking Webber into the first corner and then leading the rest of the race.

There's still room on the grid for another 2 teams, I hope that something's done about it in the next few years, but I somehow doubt that anything will be.

[Hawkwood]

The latest 'rumours' going around are that at least one of Pic and Van der Garde will be replaced (maybe both - although I think Kovalainen's place may depend on them beating Marussia to 10th place and getting the money that brings).

Does that leave a massive incentive for the two Caterham drivers knowing that they may be dumped?

This is a question that was asked of Pic after Brazil last year, but thought I'd ask again anyway as this time the two drivers aren't being linked with another team.

[m355y]

No. I'm sick of 'scholarship class' and their continual battle for tenth. To be honest. They make up the numbers and that's it. Neither have come anywhere near scoring a single point in four seasons, I find it so hard to care who comes tenth.

[Aysedasi]

If I'm brutally honest, I tend to agree.

[Marbot]

I used to be close to tears when Minardi scored a point or two.

It's not that easy to do when you're getting lapped three or four time during a race. Yes, they were just making up the numbers, but that dogged determination really shone through on so many occasions.

I shall be very interested in that battle for tenth spot, and maybe next season the predicted unreliability will throw up one or two surprises.

Long live the underdog!

[Heycoop Racing]

Originally Posted by m355y

No. I'm sick of 'scholarship class' and their continual battle for tenth. To be honest. They make up the numbers and that's it. Neither have come anywhere near scoring a single point in four seasons, I find it so hard to care who comes tenth.

Last year in Brazil Petrov finished 11th. Thats pretty close to scoring a point... as close as Bottas had gotten to an F1 point before Austin

[steve_r]

If it rains in Brazil, then this could well be the race that decides that 10th place. All those little rivers that appear accross the track could cause chaos.

I'm hoping that Maruissa do it - simply because they seem to be the lowest budget team on the grid.

[JacobP]

I think it's a pretty exciting battle. I hope Marussia wins. That will teach Caterham a lesson. You don't win right after having fired both of the better drivers outside of the top 5 teams.

[andrewc]

Both teams took a big gamble letting their experienced drivers go, and with a smaller budget, I feel Marussia deserve it this year.

And Max Chilton deserves some plaudits for finishing every race so far - the only person to do so.

[BertMk2]

I think they've done an ok job - they're a bit closer to the other teams (still off the back of the pack but by no more than most teams are behind the Red Bulls). Marussia have the smallest budget and this years Caterham is pretty much last years car from what I remember reading pre-season. I think Marussia will finish ahead - because I can't see enough cars dropping out to give Caterham a 12th placed finish, there would have to be some sort of carnage at the first corner for that to happen (and even then the Caterhams would have to stay out of trouble).

[tristancliffe]

I think a lot of drivers could finish every race if a) the car is reliable and b) they were slow enough not to crash.

[andrewc]

21 other drivers have demonstrated that its harder than may it may appear.

[canamman]

May need to bring up live timing and scoring to keep up with this battle.
Machett said back in Austin there is around 40 million dollars up for grabs
for 10th in end of the season payouts.

[FFSM]

Originally Posted by andrewc

21 other drivers have demonstrated that its harder than may it may appear.

Well yeah, it must be harder if you're having to overtake other cars - rather than just moving out of the way as you're being lapped

[BSchneiderFan]

I've been thinking about this and Marussia deserve some credit for beating Caterham. They have less money, by all accounts, and the Renault engines in the Caterham must be stronger than the Cosworth units, plus they have two rookies (yes, yes, one of whom isn't rated by everyone), but they've finished ahead.

[Supertec]

I hope the commentators don't refer to Marussia & Caterham as the 'new teams' next season they're not anymore............'Back markers' please or 'Division two'

[Mathias]

I found that battle fascinating, I have to say.

Interested in this thread because I've done some statistical analysis of the relative performances of Caterham and Marussia in 2013, and I don't think the ultimate outcome of the battle (which amounts to some $13million for the team awarded 10th place and NOTHING AT ALL for the other) is somewhat unfair.

Marussia got 10th place simply as a result of placing 13th at Sepang, a race in which 6 of their competitors retired. Generally speaking, Caterham outperformed Marussia at most of the races - they "won" the new teams battle 11 times to Marussia's 8, and both Caterhams beat both Marussia's 5 times - a feat Marussia never achieved. Furthermore a Pic finished ahead of Gutierrez's Sauber on track at Bahrain and van der Garde finished ahead of Maldonado's Williams at Spa - neither Marussia ever beat anything other than a Caterham, unless it retired.

That said, if you take an average of all of the positions that the Caterhams and the Marussias finished in over the season, it comes to exactly 17.894th for both teams.

Anyway, my point being, that, yes, to a certain extent you have to live with the fact that Marussia finished one race further up the classification than Caterham did, even if that was only the result of the fact that the race in which more non-Caterham/Marussia drivers retired than any other, just happened to be one of the minority of races in which Marussia finished ahead.

But does that single result really mean that Marussia deserve the prize money, or should section 7.1 of the sporting regulations been applied: “Prizes and points awarded for all the positions of competitors who tie, will be added together and shared equally.”

[Mathias]

Originally Posted by m355y

No. I'm sick of 'scholarship class' and their continual battle for tenth. To be honest. They make up the numbers and that's it. Neither have come anywhere near scoring a single point in four seasons, I find it so hard to care who comes tenth.

Exactly how do you think new teams should be encouraged to compete in F1 then? If we didn't have backmarkers, who would gamble on new driving talent, especially when everyone seems to put their hands up in horror whenever anyone like McLaren signs a rookie driver? The mid-to-back of the grid is where all the fun happens, these days, anyway, IMHO.

[canamman]

Originally Posted by Mathias

Exactly how do you think new teams should be encouraged to compete in F1 then? If we didn't have backmarkers, who would gamble on new driving talent, especially when everyone seems to put their hands up in horror whenever anyone like McLaren signs a rookie driver? The mid-to-back of the grid is where all the fun happens, these days, anyway, IMHO.

Agree, albeit hard to keep track of the battles on tv. From what I understand, there is still quite a large payout up for grabs for 10th.

Wish the F1 website would stream in car camera shots so we could
ride along with our favorites even if they are towards the back.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by canamman

Agree, albeit hard to keep track of the battles on tv. From what I understand, there is still quite a large payout up for grabs for 10th.

Wish the F1 website would stream in car camera shots so we could
ride along with our favorites even if they are towards the back.

FOM don't do modern technology they just spend their time removeing anything anybody else puts on the web.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

FOM don't do modern technology they just spend their time removeing anything anybody else puts on the web.

I don't get this either, they are supposed to be about marketing and exposure and yet they spend most of their efforts in restricting access to the sport! indeed!

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Mathias

I found that battle fascinating, I have to say.

Interested in this thread because I've done some statistical analysis of the relative performances of Caterham and Marussia in 2013, and I don't think the ultimate outcome of the battle (which amounts to some $13million for the team awarded 10th place and NOTHING AT ALL for the other) is somewhat unfair.

Marussia got 10th place simply as a result of placing 13th at Sepang, a race in which 6 of their competitors retired. Generally speaking, Caterham outperformed Marussia at most of the races - they "won" the new teams battle 11 times to Marussia's 8, and both Caterhams beat both Marussia's 5 times - a feat Marussia never achieved. Furthermore a Pic finished ahead of Gutierrez's Sauber on track at Bahrain and van der Garde finished ahead of Maldonado's Williams at Spa - neither Marussia ever beat anything other than a Caterham, unless it retired.

That said, if you take an average of all of the positions that the Caterhams and the Marussias finished in over the season, it comes to exactly 17.894th for both teams.

Anyway, my point being, that, yes, to a certain extent you have to live with the fact that Marussia finished one race further up the classification than Caterham did, even if that was only the result of the fact that the race in which more non-Caterham/Marussia drivers retired than any other, just happened to be one of the minority of races in which Marussia finished ahead.

But does that single result really mean that Marussia deserve the prize money, or should section 7.1 of the sporting regulations been applied: “Prizes and points awarded for all the positions of competitors who tie, will be added together and shared equally.”

Good post and good points. Ideally, perhaps it should be on the basis of the average finishing position rather than the present best result, but do results really mean count for anything important anything in this day and age.....