V8s, Are There Now too Many?

[terence]

We have all seen it in our individual series/races,are these car,s causing those of us with the smaller engined car,s to lose out within our own races?
I appreciate that they do make a good spectacle,but it seem,s that there are now enough of them to form a series purely for them.As has just been proven,you dont need one to win you,r chosen series[Silverstone HSCC].
How many times have you been having a nice scrap with a similar car only to have it spoiled by one of these tanks?

[Al Weyman]

I own three but I have to agree IF they are unregulated. If they are built as they should have been in period and no Motorsport blocks and stroker cranks etc then I think as witnessed by that famous old footage from Crystal Palace with the Mini & the Yank playing cat and mouse a good little un can take them on. Also make sure the weights per cc as laid down in the FIA's sheets that the CTRCC has adobted are adhered to.

[rogerwills]

I've had some fantastic racing in the Cortina this season against the Mustangs. I agree that the rules and regulations must be enforced but if they are, we can all compete. At some circuits like Silverstone the sheer pace of the V8s makes it hard to stay with them. But at tighter circuits things are much closer. And of course if it rains, the Minis come into their own. I think there is a place for all these cars as there was in period, just that everyone needs to play by the rules!

[zefarelly]

I've never been a fan of them, MUstangs and Galaxies aside none of them raced here in period anyway (pre66 that is) and I think they're spoiling things a little for the UK/Euro saloons. As there are so many of them now I think a 2L cutoff as U2TC works very well.

[terence]

The reason for my asking the question was after Spa,I started thinking about the different event of the weekend[as you do] and it struck me that to some extent,these car,s can and do interupt any interesting scrap you might have on at the time these things start lapping the smaller engined class,es.
Admittedly,on occaision this can have the effect of helping you get past the car in front[if the driver moves over,you just tag on and follow the V8].It,s just that there are so many out there now,not all of which are being driven to thier full potential it has to be said,that alone cause,s another problem,you can be all over them in the twiddly bits,then they just power away on the straights!One of the reasons I hope the U2SC come,s into being.

[Peter Mallett]

Whilst I do agree with the sentiment, it is also true that there are loads more Cortinas/MGBs (for example) out there now than in period. Al is right, if they are built to the regs then surely the problem would go away?

As to a separate series/race? Not sure really.

[Al Weyman]

My car stays with the little cars through the twiddly bits (look at my Video) and can shock a few under braking as well thats an old misconseption that is being perpertrated that Yanks cannot handle or brake, they can and do, its just its a bit down on power at the moment and thats where they catch me :-)

[zefarelly]

theres loads more MG's because they're relatively cheap in relation to performance, I think theres less Cortinas than in recent years to be honest, probably because they're at home while the owners race their new V8's

separate races where common in period. saloons did under and over capacity splits, often around 1300cc, but that was before we had a glut of barges.

seeing as minis have gained more than all the other small cars over the years they're now as fast as many 1500-1600cc cars, I think this is why the 2L split works, although a 1300 split might encourage Anglias, R8's, NSU's, Imps etc to race more

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

My car stays with the little cars through the twiddly bits (look at my Video) and can shock a few under braking as well thats an old misconseption that is being perpertrated that Yanks cannot handle or brake, they can and do, its just its a bit down on power at the moment and thats where they catch me :-)

late 60's/70's was and is very different to pre66, things relaxed a bit and the cars developed, the U tube CP video proves that.

[Peter Mallett]

Off topic comment alert I have to type this or my brain will explode! I was looking at that yesterday. It bears no relation to the actual saloon car racing of the period. The BSCC was based on Group 1 by 1971 and in that time it was showroom spec and the classes were based on sales price which is how Tony L won it with a Moskvich (it had a BMW 1500cc engine BTW). The Gerry M Youtube clip is the special saloons which had a bigger following at the time. However FWIW this is why the BSCC changed to Group 2 in the following year. Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

[zefarelly]

so your quote is like the difference between App K (in its purest/legal form) and the more 'relaxed' Group 5 HRSR regs, just a few years later.

one thing is obvious, 'new' Septic saloons running in pre66 saloons are very fast and don't seem to be as they where in period in any way shape or form, least of all the App K cars ironically, interestingly no ones bothered prepping an HRSR spec V8 . . . maybe thay're already prepped that far ? ? ?

minis still do understeer power salides, cortinas still lift wheels, alfas still rust

[Simon Hadfield]

From personal experience there is more cheating within the "FIA" pre 66 V8 saloons than any other category that I have been involved - to the point that as a company we no longer have any thing to do with the category. Having been previously personally threatened by another competitor for daring to voice my opinion, I could tell you at least ten significant ways that the rules are being distorted(and will therefore keep those thoughts for private conversations) and that is without considering that some of the homlogation forms are themselves deeply suspect - simply the cars in period did not have the components that owners and preparers claim for themselves today.

[Peter Mallett]

Well it wasn't a quote it was an off topic comment.

The BSCC Group 1 rules that I refer to were nothing like AppK and from that well......

The question was "Are there too many V8s?" and as such you could say that the proportion of V8s is no more than in period because there are more Minis, alfas, Cortinas etc. and in sportscars more MGBs, Cobras, lightweight Jags et al. As you say its due to cash.

So the problem comes back to your old saw of regs and development.

However as I said I sympathise but like the rest of us I do think we need to be a bit realistic. Its all about heat and kitchens really. I need another 40bhp to be equal to most of the Group 1 Capris out there. So when I get a new job, I'll buy my 40bhp (and it will be legal). Its been the same since man invented the wheel.

Don't you think the sight of the big V8s thundering through Woodcote or clearways is exciting? I do, but I also know that racing a well prepared B (thanks Terry) or any other car of that vintage is tremendous fun and when it comes down to it, if certain racers want to blast round in a Mustang with unfeasible amounts of power, why should I care, I'm racing for my class win not the overall podium?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

From personal experience there is more cheating within the "FIA" pre 66 V8 saloons than any other category that I have been involved - to the point that as a company we no longer have any thing to do with the category. Having been previously personally threatened by another competitor for daring to voice my opinion, I could tell you at least ten significant ways that the rules are being distorted(and will therefore keep those thoughts for private conversations) and that is without considering that some of the homlogation forms are themselves deeply suspect - simply the cars in period did not have the components that owners and preparers claim for themselves today.

Simon,

Our posts crossed.

Yes I agree the "tweaks" are unreal. I think we know who the main perps are. But that's why I suggest we (us amateur drivers) should think more about what we are racing and our class of racing than worry about what those with smaller whatsits do.

[zefarelly]

Top Post Simon, and I'm extremely glad someone else has the guts to say it. Someone with some first hand knowledge/experience, we are referring to pre66 saloons here not 70's-08 nascar, which is what many have suspected, its nlittle wonder they all race in one place.

and thats the 3rd time this weekend I've heard of cars being prepped to forged papers . . . . . . I'll post elsewhere on that subject

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

From personal experience there is more cheating within the "FIA" pre 66 V8 saloons than any other category that I have been involved - to the point that as a company we no longer have any thing to do with the category. Having been previously personally threatened by another competitor for daring to voice my opinion, I could tell you at least ten significant ways that the rules are being distorted(and will therefore keep those thoughts for private conversations) and that is without considering that some of the homlogation forms are themselves deeply suspect - simply the cars in period did not have the components that owners and preparers claim for themselves today.

[pomracer]

There are always fads that people follow and of course some people like to think that they have a car capable of winning and at the front...take GTS, say 5 years ago there were not very many Cobras seen out regularly, whereas I can think of 3 cars which have been newly prepared just this year, and Masters might have 6 or more on the grid in any one race. Ditto Corvettes - 5 years ago two cars, now about six ( Goodwood potential).
In saloons : Mustangs? - any amount of them. Galaxies ...I seem to remember there was always one to be seen, now 3 or 4 regularly...same for Falcons. -----all of the above comments refer to UK owned and prepped cars, so am not including those seen out in Europe.
Is this just an indication of the popularity of historic (App K) racing?
With NASCAR etc there is nothing that has not been done to a small block Ford or Chevrolet engine - the whole US motor racing industry is virtually based upon extracting more power from V8's - and thats without including drag racing.
The corollary to this is that there is a lot of current technology (engine internals, ignition systems, differentials etc) available over the counter , and so (picking up on Simon Hadfields post) , put bluntly, there is a lot of stuff out there that makes it easier for someone to abuse the system if they want to.
Personally - the more V8s the merrier. Think Spa , open pipes, 6000 rpm.. 130+db....love it! (sorry, what did you say? bit deaf you know...)

[terence]

Firstly for Al,my comment was aimed at some of the drivers ability rather than the car,s.Simon,well done on refusing the work,a stage I came to a little while back,the point being that if you are linked to a bent car,you automaticly become "bent" along with the car.The other point re: V8s,is that these sodding great thing,s often spoil races for owners of the litluns,there are toooo many out there as Zef said.I suppose that the owners of them think that"Right,now I,ve got one,I,ll go and blow everyone off",as we,ve all seen,it doe,snt work like that!!

[Al Weyman]

As I have said before i always used to wonder about 6.2 Litre Camaros entered in HSCC as there is no way you can run at that without a siamesed motorsport block that can take a 1/4 inch overbore and yet there they are (or were) entered for the world to see I was even in a race earlier this year and the guy openly entered his car as a 6.2 when I asked him if he had gone over to a big block he quite openly said no small block, now that cannot be legal in CTRCC, Pre-66 or anything else other than the HotRod series Heritage.

Sorry crossed posts Terry, yes good point they do take some getting used to thats a fact. A mate of mine sold his Camaro to some twot that started from the back of a ModProd grid at Pembrey after some brake problems and set about destroying the field, the guys banded together and refused to race with him so as i understand he went on to CSCC and one of the organisers told me he turned up there drunk so they also asked him to ****** off.

[zefarelly]

as a musician I like a 105db limit. I like the ability to hear. . . . .

V8's sound much better with silencers and a low bass rumble, ear piercing crackling Chevrolets at LeMans over the last 5-6 years typpify how wrong the Americans are . . . wasted acoustic energy could have been redistributed into kinetic energy.

Pomracer . . .$/£ excahnge rate and as we all know modern stuff is cheaper than old stuff . . . a ford Kent block will run 10 000 rpm at 1500cc if you use zetec pistons, long rods and a special stroked crank

[GORDON STREETER]

The main problem that I have with big engined cars is that in a classed race the first 3 over the line get all the kudos and reports in the motor press . The whole race if televised, will concentrate on the monster cars that if driven properly will invariably win overall in the right conditions. For us mere mortals in the lower classes we appear to only make up the numbers and get in the way making it difficult to attract sponsors. The only saving grace is that the more people that join the top cc class the less likely they are to win a championship overall . Looking back on my racing I have had a lot of class wins but have only won overall 4 times (discounting wet meets) So why don't I join them ?
I was talking to a guy at Spa that had or (so he claimed) 450bhp more than me, and spent more on an engine than my whole racing budget for 2/3 years !
but was only 8secs a lap faster than me, and a lot of bigger engined cars were considerably slower, that's why I shall continue to be a mobile chicane on the straight bits while I listen to my 8 track !

[Moosehead]

I race a Mustang because I like them, always have. The big problem I think is that most people race them because they have seen that they can win races. I believe most of these converts have no true enthusiasm for the car and thats a pain when something happens (such as at Silverstone on Saturday) and then every V8 driver gets tarred with the same brush.

I've had some great dices with non V8 cars this year and on every occasion the other driver has come over after the race and thanked me for it.

Surely you should have disparity in power and handling to make up great racing. If you want all the cars to have similar characteristics wouldn't you be happier racing in a one make series?

[GORDON STREETER]

[quote=Moosehead]I race a Mustang because I like them, always have. The big problem I think is that most people race them because they have seen that they can win races.
My sentiment entirely! I doubt if there are enough Angleboxes left to make up a one make championship

[Peter Mallett]

I think Terry has two points (the legality thing is really for another thread). Firstly driving capabilities and I for one have suffered from some drivers who just don't know what they've got under their right foot. Talk about wayward, I've at times had to back out of a corner just so that the Mustang in front can finish its accident!

The second is the speed differential. Here I agree with Gordon that the general perception is the first three, but then again, these days when I (or indeed the bank) sponsor my racing it makes little difference to me who won, only that I had a good race. For me the best "race" this year was at silverstone where I finished sixth but had a race long dice with a Camaro (7th), sunbeam Tiger (8th on Yokos) and alan Daffin's Capri (9th). I think we were covered by no more than a second for most of the 30mins.

[terence]

The point is coming out now.I had a couple of pretty good scraps at Spa,first it was in the "B",involving a "GT350",and also a Plymoth,got by both of them and thought they both must have problems.Then it happened again in Peters fab Capri,then it struck me that maybe they did,nt have any mechanical problems!One thing that made me sit up and take notice was one race in the Silverstone Classic was the number of Cobras out there,8 in one race!now,what was that about a one make series?There are some very capable V8 drivers out there in quite legal cars,some of whom I,ve had some excellent scrap,s with[mostly in the wet]but I personaly feel that there are to many that are perhaps in the hands they should be,Spa 2005 frinstance.

[Peter Mallett]

LOL,

I recall Spa a few years ago when I came up to the rear of a Galaxie. It just left me for dead on the straights but I had to brake seriously early for the Bus Stop because it filled the track and needed Runway 1 at Heathertow to stop!

Finally I got alongside at Blanchiment (it was wagging its tail quite severely) and just out braked it into the Chicane, but it took two flaming laps!