The Indy Circuit

[jhansen]

It seems to be the general opinion of the drivers that the Indy road course is not that interesting, or certainly could have been designed better. Many have said they would like to use more of the oval in the track layout. Here's an article that cites some quotes from Michael Schumacher.

http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html

I found this quote interesting:

"The unfortunate thing is we obviously don't race the real Indianapolis,"

"We have our own circuit, which is a circuit done within the existing one, so it's sort of compromised."

The drivers seem to enjoy being at Indy because of the history and prestige, but the track leaves much to be desired. Should they change the configuration of the circuit to make it more interesting? What about one oval race on the F1 calender?

[Snrub]

You're going to get the "oval racing is too dangerous blah-blah-blah..." comments, but for F1 cars they would be too dangerous. Both IRL and CART cars weigh more because they are reinforced for 230mph impacts into hard concrete walls.

The circuit layout may not be of the caliber of other tracks because it has repeatedly produced good races and passing. A proper F1 track should prevent all passing and have annoying pre-corners that mess up any chance of passing. In all seriousness, maybe it's not as technical as some of the other circuits, but who cares it's one of the best tracks from a fan's perspective.

[Spudgun]

I think there's a rule somewhere that says a car not specifically designed for oval racing cannot be driven on a circuit that uses more than two corners of an oval course.

[jhansen]

I don't realisticly think that they'd ever even consider using the oval. But I was curious about what everyone else thought. As for safety, even at a lighter weight, I think an F1 car is perhaps the safest racing car on the planet.

[garcon]

I'd like to see it. It won't happen, for all sorts of reasons, but I'd still like to see it. Oval racing has a skill all of its own, and I think a one-off (or even one a season!) oval race might throw up some interesting comparisons between the current crop of F1 drivers. It would certainly sort the men from the boys in terms of outright, on the limit car control - finding that perfect balance on the banking at 230mph.

One argument I don't think is valid, but may get thrown up anyway is that it would require an entirely unique car set up. Yes it would, but then so does Monaco.

[dcp2685]

I cannot see the harm in doing an F1 Oval race. Granted the speeds currently are incredible but as Snrub said, the weight of IRL is more than that of the F1 is for reinforcement from impacts. In attempt to slow F1 down a bit, how bout increasing the weight and for increased safety in racing at an oval, run restrictor plates like they do in NASCAR for their superspeedways like Talledega. If they didn't they'd be running WAY over 200 mph.

On the whole, i would love to see F1 cars run the Indy Oval for a race. It would be a great change and allow the engine suppliers to truly show off their stuff.

[kristof14]

I wonder how fast an F1 car could reach on an oval? i guees it would depend on the size of the drivers knackers

[jhansen]

You could also enforce a gurney flap, or some drag producing device on the rear wing. Many ways to slow the cars down.

[BootsOntheSide]

If F1 deisgners got a bit of time to test on ovals,a dna few chances to redesign the car specifically for it (allowign for lighter brakes, smaller wings, inside wheels smaller etc) they could probably be as fast as IRL cars, without compromising their performance on road courses.

[garcon]

Someone with better technical knowledge than I may be able to confirm this, but I understand there's a pretty big aerodynamic wall (no pun intended ) not far above the 240mph that has already been reached. The mechanical and aero grip needed to stop the car flying up into the wall is also what limits its top speed.

[dcp2685]

Well if an IRL car w/ less HP and more LBS than an F1 car can hit the mid 220's at a place like Indy i would imagine the F1 would be around the 240 mark.

At Talledega where the banking is like 30 degrees i couldn't imagine.

[Kicking-back]

An F1 car on an oval would be dicing with disaster - and aside from including the Indy 500 in the points during the fifties - Grand Prix racing is a road-racing sport.

[Spudgun]

I think they'd have to redesign engine components or perhaps they could do it on engine mapping I suppose, but I'd give an F1 in it's current guise 5-10 laps before it went pop.

On an engine preview for the race over at F1Racing.net, apparently running at 100% throttle for 22 seconds is a problem for heat dissipation out of the combustion chamber.

With aero, the power and the tyre technology of F1 they could probably do the entire lap flat out, so I guess they would have change something/detune.

I admit it would be interesting to see how a lap round the oval at speed in an F1 would look.

[jhansen]

Nobody here seems to be dissing the road circuit at Indy, is this just a consensus from the sometimes "elitist" drivers?

[garcon]

It's not the greatest circuit on the calendar - those tight twists and turns don't really flow too well. But we've had some pretty good battles at Indy the past few years so it can't be all bad.

[Rennen]

Originally posted by Snrub
You're going to get the "oval racing is too dangerous blah-blah-blah..." comments, but for F1 cars they would be too dangerous. Both IRL and CART cars weigh more because they are reinforced for 230mph impacts into hard concrete walls.

The circuit layout may not be of the caliber of other tracks because it has repeatedly produced good races and passing. A proper F1 track should prevent all passing and have annoying pre-corners that mess up any chance of passing. In all seriousness, maybe it's not as technical as some of the other circuits, but who cares it's one of the best tracks from a fan's perspective.

I remember when world champion Jack Brabham drove his rear engined F1 Cooper 2.5 Climax around the Indy oval in 1961. Coopers built a beefed-up version returned in 1962 and finished 9th (I think) the writting was on the wall for the heavy pre-war F1 derived Roadsters. Lotus then ran a ultra light type 25 F1 with a puny 1.5 litre motor and ran 150mph laps...the rest is history.

Current F1 cars are developed for road courses, braking being their greatest attribute, running the complete oval makes a nonsense of all that technology. It makes no sense to circulate at 225mph average per lap...pointlessly fast! How gualling must it be to be beaten by another driver slipstreaming past...rather than by driving skills!

Motor racing is about negiotiating the 'fiddle stuff'...but the infield at Indy is way too tight for even a nimble light F1 car...and at odds aerodynamically with the fast oval section used, the only good bit is where they try and out brake each other into the infield!

But having said that if it brings F1 to the home of American motor sport, then it's the best that can be done until a talented American driver can be found and given a chance to drive for a top F1 team.

[shiny side up!]

I took a stab at a redesign of Indy a few weeks back:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...pagenumber=402

I don't see using the oval as a possibility, as even if the FIA and teams agreed to it, Tony George would not want to take the chance on the F1 race upstaging the Indy 500. Sad, really.

[Snrub]

F1 cars are safe for their design criteria. The tub would be obliterated if you smashed into a concrete wall at the speeds CART and IRL cars do it at.

There's no question that F1 would be at 240mph. When CART had current F1 HP and then some, that's what they did at Fontana. If F1 was to do a oval they'd need to restrict wing/downforce, etc.

As for ovals not producing decent racing because it's all just slipstreaming, I can tell you've never seen a good oval race or simply could not grasp what was going on. (no offense intended)

What's wrong with the infield being mickymouse? The drivers still have to drive faster than their competition to be faster. How many people like the current aero-impact on racing? I stand by my statement, the Indy road course has produced some of the best racing each year it has run.

[shiny side up!]

I agree with Snrub's oval racing comments. There is a hell of a lot more than slipstreaming going on in a good oval race. It is just a different world than the twisties... too many fans rule out one type or the other, but when you get down to it, there can be great racing on ovals and road courses.

I think the Mickey-Mouse description of the roval in Indy comes from the driver's perspective. I think from a fan's point of view, the indy circuit is great! I've been there each year for the GP, and there are many great viewing spots on the infield section, particularly in the double hairpin and turns 4-5-6. The course just isn't as challenging as a Suzuka or Spa, and that's why the drivers have labeled it a bit Mickey Mouse, but it does provide for good racing.

[jhansen]

If it could be made safe, I think using the oval would be great. It's a different disciplene and would provide different strategies. And if you take the time to really understand you'll find it is more difficult than you think. A very good thing in mixing up the championship race. Same with the two road courses in NASCAR. You can't win the championship at those two tracks, but you can sure shoot yourself in the foot with a bad showing. An oval race in Formula 1, from the oval racing capital of the world. Makes sense to me.

As for the road circuit at Indy I do agree it provides good racing. It's just interesting that the opinions of the fans and drivers differ on that.

[GP Racer]

Watching F1 drivers and their cars on the oval at Indy, would be great.

It would take many drivers out of there ordinary comfort zones of road courses, and it could produce some surprising results. A Minardi or a Jordan might stand as much of a chance of winning as a Ferrari, because all that technology would be somewhat neutralized.

Hmmm, Zsolt Baumgartner wins the USGP... Has a nice ring to it!

PS - Nice posts snrub, I agree completely.

[Testure]

I imagine the drivers just think the Indy road course is just a bit boring. Compared to somewhere like Suzuka (surely the most technically difficult track on the calendar?) the Indy course is pretty dull. They all bring out the same quotes about this race every year - "compromise between the straight and infield section, blah, blah, blah..." and never seem too enthused. Montréal seems to be the more well-liked North-American event by quite some margin.

It's fab seeing them on that long straight though

[pirenzo]

As Spud said, there is no rule, but there must be a limit.
Snrub said quite rightly that F1 tubs simply aren't designed or even required to deal with the sort of impacts Indy cars have with those walls. But nonetheless, I don't think there's any reason why they can't use both turn 2 and turn 1 of the oval. How much would it really change in terms of safety? Maybe a lot, but I think it would still be within the margins of reasonable risk.

[neilap]

If Indy was run on the oval it may be the only race of the season I would miss. I dont understand the whole concept. Imagine how exciting qualifying would be. Ever whatched nascar quali. I lasted about 15 seconds.

Anyway, the USGP presents the best racing year after year. These challenging and extravagant tracks are too difficult to drive to allow good battles. A simple track allows the drivers to really race. What ruins the track IMO is the section between corner 8 9 and 10. Those corners are way too slow. So far we have not seen any really good battles between drivers. I bet this weekend we will see a few.

[Snrub]

Originally posted by neilap
Anyway, the USGP presents the best racing year after year. These challenging and extravagant tracks are too difficult to drive to allow good battles. A simple track allows the drivers to really race. What ruins the track IMO is the section between corner 8 9 and 10. Those corners are way too slow. So far we have not seen any really good battles between drivers. I bet this weekend we will see a few.

I agree. I will say this about 8-10, because they're so wierd and slow they do setup for passes on the straight because drivers are prone to mess them up, but I don't really like them.