Blue Book flagging

[Rick101]

Hi,

New here, been marshalling about a year, done a handful of circuit & speed events.

There were some discussions with regard to flagging on my last event. I was told all the information could be found in the Blue Book. I've had a look and have found page 284. Is there any other more in depth reading I could look at?

The specific questions raised were:

Is a green flag required on a Safety Car start (rather than a formation start)?

Should yellow with red stripe be used for track debris such as bodywork or should it be a single waved yellow?

With regard to Yellow and red, should it always be held stationary? Possibly in 2016 there was a waved option for slippery surface imminent but I am unable to find this in 2017 issue.

Another one while I'm here

White flag for slow moving race vehicle, waved in section, stationary on next section.
What happens if the car comes to a stop in your section, do you swap to yellow? Would you double yellow with a driver out of the car?

Thanks

[The Fat Clerk]

A good place to look is:

https://www.marshals.co.uk/wp-conten...arshalling.pdf

Its on the MotorSport safety Fund website and covers all aspects of marshalling

[Dave Brand]

Just a few observations from the world's worst flaggie!

Originally Posted by Rick101

Is a green flag required on a Safety Car start (rather than a formation start)?

Yes. It should be shown at every post for one lap, but don't take the waved yellow & SC board & show the green flag until you see it at an adjacent post on either side.

Should yellow with red stripe be used for track debris such as bodywork or should it be a single waved yellow?

You'll get a variety of opinions on this. It's a judgement call, but one rule of thumb that's often quoted is: if they'll run over it, show the striped flag, is they'll run into it, show a yellow.

Try to use yellows as little as possible consistent with safety. If you show a yellow flag you are in effect stopping racing over your sector. The drivers have paid a lot of money to race; help them get maximum value for money!

With regard to Yellow and red, should it always be held stationary? Possibly in 2016 there was a waved option for slippery surface imminent but I am unable to find this in 2017 issue.

Q 15.1 (h)

White flag for slow moving race vehicle, waved in section, stationary on next section.
What happens if the car comes to a stop in your section, do you swap to yellow?

The operative words here are "slow moving". If it stops it's become an incident.

Would you double yellow with a driver out of the car?

Yes.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Rick101

Is a green flag required on a Safety Car start (rather than a formation start)?

No, because all flag points will be showing SC boards and a single waved yellow flag. You will however go green at the end of the SC period.

Should yellow with red stripe be used for track debris such as bodywork or should it be a single waved yellow?

Judgement required. If it's big enough to cause further damage or evasive action, or is scattered in a braking zone, single yellow flag. If it's a small enough piece and/or not on the racing line, change of surface flag.

Once everyone's seen the bits and the flag once or twice, bring them in. If you've reported it to RC or you have an IO who's done that, upstairs might make a judgement call on whether to leave it in situ or neutralise and clear.

With regard to Yellow and red, should it always be held stationary? Possibly in 2016 there was a waved option for slippery surface imminent but I am unable to find this in 2017 issue.

Do an experiment - in a quiet moment, walk away from post and get someone to wave the change of surface flag. Do you see stripes, yellow or something else...? Imagine glancing at a waving flag while doing 120mph and think what the driver might see.

It is possible to agitate the CoS flag by holding the edge of the flag and moving it up and down, but waving it is not recommended.

White flag for slow moving race vehicle, waved in section, stationary on next section.
What happens if the car comes to a stop in your section, do you swap to yellow? Would you double yellow with a driver out of the car?

Yes and maybe. If the driver pulls the car way off the track out of the firing line (i.e. "in a safe place") and is being sensible, a single will do until they're over the fence. If however they're on or very close to the track and potentially in danger of collision, double (Remembering that you can't upgrade from a double).

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

You'll get a variety of opinions on this. It's a judgement call, but one rule of thumb that's often quoted is: if they'll run over it, show the striped flag, is they'll run into it, show a yellow.

Said rather more memorably than I did

Q 15.1 (h)

I have never understood why that rule remains, given the clarity of signal is hugely compromised by waving that specific flag.

[Rick101]

Thanks chaps.

Food for thought.

[Terrible-Tones]

OK following on from those excellent questions and answers I have a couple more - stemming from a real race that Nina did. In 2014 she competed in the BWRDC Ladies race at Silverstone. It had an eclectic mix of cars. Nina's MR2 was one of the slower ones. It was a handicapped race where some slower cars had credit laps, and some faster cars had debits. Now Nina started with a credit of 0, but the Lambo for instance, had a debit of 6. In this scenario the Lambo had to lap Nina 6 times to get ahead of her.

My questions are thus:

As the Lambo comes up to Nina would you show a blue - bearing in mind that though this is lapping, it is also effectively for position?

Further, there is the "blocking rule". If you are fighting for position, then the defending car is allowed one move, but if you are being lapped, you should not block at all, just stay on racing line. Therefore as a Post Chief, if Nina makes one move as the Lambo laps her, would you report that for blocking, or not, since she is actually very much defending her position?

I know what Nina's view of the blues are in this scenario are as a driver. I also know what she made of the blocking rule - and how she dealt with it. It will be interesting to see if views coincide!

BTW - It rained - great leveller, she did good coming 9th out of 29, and being in 3rd or 4th for 3/4 of the race. She beat the Lambo by 18 places, lapped (real lapping) an ARDS instructor in "technically faster" car, and got Driver of the Day - so proud.

[IMG]10462730_673426129423008_229981480673419953_n by Tony Apsion, on Flickr[/IMG]

[Woolley]

Blue means you are being shortly being caught by a faster moving car of which you may not be aware, thus it's entirely legitimate to show a blue for unlapping (or even overtaking) as it is purely advisory. If as a driver you know that it's a position you're fighting for then you're at liberty to not allow it through easily. The flaggie wouldn't know how many times you'd been (un)lapped so continues to provide information.

I was once told:
Y&R means look down, there's something that might cause you a problem.
Y means look around, you might cause a problem to someone else.
DY means look ahead, you might hit something you don't want to.

So to answer the particular question, if the debris in the track is something that could cause damage to something hitting it, then you need a yellow.

The most memorable briefing I heard went as follows (the asterixes indicate a rude word beginning with sh).

Yellow/Red = there's **** on the track.
Yellow = ****
Double yellow = oh ****
Green = **** happened
Red = ****, **** , ****
Blue = you're ****
Black/orange = your car's ****
Black/white = you're in the ****

[The Fat Clerk]

Yellow/Red = there's **** on the track.
Yellow = ****
Double yellow = oh ****
Green = **** happened
Red = ****, **** , ****
Blue = you're ****
Black/orange = your car's ****
Black/white = you're in the ****

it's called Clerk speak.

[ForZiE23]

Thanks chaps, this is very useful info for me too

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Yellow/Red = there's **** on the track....................


it's called Clerk speak.

LOL - that's brilliant - wish the whole BB was like that!


As for Nina, for sure she wanted the blues, whether being lapped or not. Mostly she was aware of stuff coming up anyhow, but she said the blues were really useful and mostly done really well.

For the "blocking" bit, she made it as difficult as she could for anything to pass, whether it was lapping or not, in essence it was all for position. She mostly blocked by using slower traffic she was also overtaking wisely. However her caveat was, only do so if it was safe to do so. Several times she let faster traffic straight through because, given the conditions, she felt it was the much wiser option.

[Greem]

Woolley wins the Internet today with that one

Tony - the first day I marshalled (the day after my taster day) was the final VSCC event before Donington got butchered in '09. The post chief (post 6) gleefully handed me the blue and asked me to do the handicap race. It didn't take me too long to work out that the speed differentials for some cars were such that they *needed* me to blue them, especially as the drivers were staring down Craner.

I loved it. It was bloody hard, mind you!

[Slipstick]

Yes. Fast car coming up behind slower car that may not have noticed. Blue.

I don't much care if it's lappery or the leader who spun off and is now tearing back through the field (so overtaking for position). Except in F1 the blue is just advisory and I think it can often be helpful. And I thought it was helpful back in the good old days when I was the one in the slow car...so that's what I do.

I have spent some time debating this matter with Post Chiefs though. Some don't like it just as some think I should be waving the blue even if the slow car has obviously already noticed the faster car and is ready for them. You'll never get it 100% right.

Steve

[EmileNaus]

Woolley, can you submit that to the MSA for next year's Blue Book?
Agree with the above, with the exception of F1, the blue Flag is advisory and there to avoid an incident. So I would blue flag a faster car coming towards a slower car even if it might be for position or to inlap. Better safe than sorry...
And it is the flag that is by far the hardest to get right!

[Norbert]

I will put my two penny's worth in on blue flagging on faster cars out of position.....

If a faster car is out of position for whatever reason, recovering from spin or penalty etc, then fight your own way back up through the field.

I would not blue flag in this instance unless there was a large speed discrepancy which could potentially lead to a dangerous situation.

As can be seen from the posts above there are widely varying views on this!

Following on from Wooley's excellent description of the flag meanings I use this one for blue flagging....

Stationery Blue - Please look in your mirror.
Waved Blue - For ****'s sake look in your mirror!

[Slipstick]

It's an interesting point. I tend to think of the blue as helping the slower car who, from experience, although slow may be trying his hardest and not looking behind him a lot. A car suddenly turning up alongside when there was no-one in sight the last time you looked often is a dangerous situation.

Unfortunately there are still some drivers who seem to think a blue flag means "forget mirrors, move off your normal line immediately". There have been a few cars in long races that I've stopped blue flagging because they kept jumping sideways, often into the path of the cars trying to lap them.

We do what we can to help but in the end we do need the drivers to do their bit too. Then everyone has a good time.

Steve

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Slipstick

I tend to think of the blue as helping the slower car who, from experience, although slow may be trying his hardest and not looking behind him a lot. Steve

Interesting that, I normally think that peeps at the back are slower partly because they spend too much time looking in the mirror. This is certainly one of Nina's "things". Spends a lot of time worrying what is coming up behind her rather than concentrating on the track in front......

Though of course every driver is different.

[The Fat Clerk]

Personally i'd get rid of the blue flag altogether, bikes never use it, karts only use it for 'lapping'.

If you've got an hour to spare i'll bore you with a story from the late 70's when I was on pole @ Brands and on the second lap was shown a waved blue even though I was still leading - yes honest

[Slipstick]

Then I can tell you about the time when I saw a waved blue at one post for 5 or 6 laps in a row when the car behind was one that started behind me and that I intended was going to stay behind me. I think the flaggie on that post must have been his Dad .

Steve

[Greem]

A former regular of this parish oft stated that if you don't go home at the end of a weekend having chucked the blue away in disgust at least once because you either done or nearly done something daft, you aren't trying hard enough!

To be continually getting it fundamentally wrong as in the examples above shows a lack of experience, or a failure of education, mentoring, guidance - or all four. Or comedic malice.

I was recently at a meeting where someone had to be instructed over the radio to put out a yellow flag for a car which had stopped just off the outside edge of the circuit on the exit of a corner. That was much more of a concern than getting a blue wrong. That however is a different thing altogether!

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Norbert

Stationery Blue - Please look in your mirror.
Waved Blue - For ****'s sake look in your mirror!

You missed a bit off the end of the Waved Blue definition - it should include - 'while you still have a mirror to look in!'

I used this in a flag training session when Shelagh's 'Uncle Derek' (Ongaro) was present - afterwards he commented that he would have submitted it to the FIA for inclusion in the Yellow Book, but wasn't sure if it would translate into French

[Woolley]

I once saw someone blue the leader on the first lap. I reckoned he probably knew they were all behind him.

To this day I can't imagine what the flaggie was thinking.

[Slipstick]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I once saw someone blue the leader on the first lap. I reckoned he probably knew they were all behind him.

To this day I can't imagine what the flaggie was thinking.

I've blue flagged the leader on a restart but that was just because I accidentally picked up the wrong flag. I though it didn't look very green.

If it's true that we only learn from our mistakes I must have learned quite a lot by now .

Steve