Open Source Software

[UncleLaz]

Hi All,

No, I am not a confussed IT geek that got on to the wrong forum, I have a question that I need some professional advice on so I thought I would come here.

For the non computer readers, open source software is a method of developing computer programs (Redhat Linux is an example). There are no secrets, there is generally no money, anyone can make a comment or contribution. This process has given the IT community some of the best software in the world as like minded people all get together and work as one.

Could this concept work in the motor racing world? Is this something that you would be interested in? OK, not formula one to start with but Redhat are only where thay are now by thinking big

Comments please

Uncle Laz

[Phoenix1]

Originally posted by UncleLaz
Hi All,

No, I am not a confussed IT geek that got on to the wrong forum, I have a question that I need some professional advice on so I thought I would come here.

For the non computer readers, open source software is a method of developing computer programs (Redhat Linux is an example). There are no secrets, there is generally no money, anyone can make a comment or contribution. This process has given the IT community some of the best software in the world as like minded people all get together and work as one.

Could this concept work in the motor racing world? Is this something that you would be interested in? OK, not formula one to start with but Redhat are only where thay are now by thinking big

Comments please

Uncle Laz

And with Linux lots of inhouse fighting and sueing of one anotehr. The only reason Microsoft get slated for crashing and virus attacks is because people put on software that has not been fully tested for Microsoft windows. For one in the two years this PC has run it only crashed once and the reason Windows XP gets virus attacks is because it is the biggest and so the obvious target much in the same way terroists bomb cities not small villages so crackers (not hackers) and low lifes such as those attack big name targets like windows.

Specifically in cars each company be it Ford or Toyota will, I suspect, have there own code. I am aware alot of in car systems on cars such as the BMW 7 series are Microsoft based. If it where to work it would have to be done by a 'core' of people with alot of testers for each 'community'. The problem is not establishing the base code, although this is of course difficult, but adding to it so if you develop software for series x will series y be able to also use it or will it need to be changed and who will test those changes. The program must be simple as from what I see, although I have no statistics, it is more common for an F1 car, all be it in testing mainly, to stop with electronic problems than for say a formula Renualt to stop though these issues.

If anyone does it could take years and cost alot of time, money and hair! On a positive note Hewlett Packard started in a garage and Microsoft also start with a bunch of student. What sort of area did you want to use the software in exactly? Are we talking car to pit, E.C.U. etc...

[shiny side up!]

I'm sure this will end up over in the technical forum...

I would think there may be some interest in this if it were in the form of low-cost data acquisition, or even DIY engine control... I think it would be very difficult to gauge the actual level of interest in this, though, as many racers just want to purchase electronics that work, and don't have the time/energy/desire to develop software and do all the other things they already do to keep the car running... But there is always the guy who wants to play and the guy that wants to put 50% less money into his car but 300% more effort and time into preparing it.

[Speed]

Is cheaper to get into software development.

[ASCII Man]

Originally posted by Phoenix1
And with Linux lots of inhouse fighting and sueing of one anotehr. The only reason Microsoft get slated for crashing and virus attacks is because people put on software that has not been fully tested for Microsoft windows. For one in the two years this PC has run it only crashed once and the reason Windows XP gets virus attacks is because it is the biggest and so the obvious target much in the same way terroists bomb cities not small villages so crackers (not hackers) and low lifes such as those attack big name targets like windows.

Sorry, but i cannot leave this nonsense unanswered.

Warning, what follows is a rant and does not necessarily represent the opinions of Ten-Tenths. (To be honest, it probably doesn't even represent the opinions of the poster when they aren't ranting.) Maybe so, but one thing that's certain is that a trojan horse will not work on Linux because it doesn't have the necessary permissions to execute itself and by the way, the only one thats sueing is SCO for copyright infringements for source code that Linus Torvalds wrote himself (the source code of Linus Torvalds seriously predates that of SCO!!) and all while they're conveniently, and secretly, funded by Microsoft(what a surprise!). We now return you to our normal ramblings.

[climb]

Agree with ASCII, MS' power is inversely proportional to the quality of his software.

[Red]

Actually that idea is in place right now. Noone stops Ferrari and Mercedes to publish their yearly 300 million work.

It's one thing that a bored student codes some software and publish it, and completely different business F1 in which the car-makers try to actually beat the other one.

PS: Ascii mate, noone prevents Windows users to block ports. And if you think that Linux (you already have the sources for you to view and search bugs or open doors) is a secure OS then you're making a big big mistake!

[ASCII Man]

I'm not saying that it's absolutely bulletproof like a Ferrari (never thought to hear myself saying that about an Italian sports car but anyho...), but it surely is a better bet than Windows.

And what about Microsoft's future plans for Windows, hmm?
When they decide what you can and cannot install on your PC would you still remain so supportive then?
Mind you, i still use Windows occasionally but only because i need it to do online banking.

Anyway, i don't think it would work for a highly competitive enviroment as F1.
Software is an entirely different matter than F1...

[Red]

Mind you, we're talking about Formula 1, not a Windows vs Linux poll!

[ASCII Man]

Wot, there's something about F1 in there!

[Bononi]

Originally posted by shiny side up!
I'm sure this will end up over in the technical forum...

you're saying...

[Phoenix1]

Originally posted by ASCII Man
Sorry, but i cannot leave this nonsense unanswered.

My point is still valid. I'm not agains open source but as I said these has to be a better legal context e.g. either there is a core ownership or there is none. SCO have made it both which it is a justified legal case we will find out but for now without legal clarity it is not working. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Microsoft and Windows try running 99% of games on anything else or as you pointed out using your bank account or software driver support (although this is quite good I hear?). Redhat/Linux need to address everyday issues like this as they are still far to techie.

As I stated before I am all for competition it makes the product quality rise but it needs to be organised and thought through carefully. It is not impossible to invisage ex-microsoft guys starting a business up is it?!

[Speck]

I don't know about Linux in F1, but I do know that SCO has filed lawsuit against 1 major US automaker, but I can't quite recall who, Chrysler perhaps.

[fog_shadow]

ascii man,
fog_shadow is here now buddy.

hmmmmm, the windows is better than linux bull**** huh? first of all there are more than enough linux users for virus writers to target linux and [gasp] they already have. but, the damage that a virus can do on a linux machine is very limited, also it is hard to exploit linux.

about the source code being open, that is what makes linux so secure!! a lot of programmers can audit the code, weakness get spotted and reported to the developers and bugs are fixed. now if you were a windows user and your radiater hose had a design flaw which meant that it would burst, you'd probably need to wait for it to burst, you'd rely on a 3rd party vendor to supply you some cheap sealing tape that costs a mini bomb which will take care of the problem for the time being till the hose burts in someother place. but hey!! the hose does *look* so nice and pretty.

OTOH, if you were a linux user, the person who designed the radiator would most probably learn about the defect before it bursts, redesign and make the new hose available for *free*. sure you need to get your hands dirty, but it works..period.

me, i'd rather get my hands dirty. but then again i never liked playing with dolls either

[fog_shadow]

just to add to the above, what is a virus anyway? the last time i got a virus, i took some asprin, ate lot's of soup and took some rest.

what does that have to do with computers anyway??? oh!!! now i remember!!! it was that *thing* that used to happen when i used that pretty OS. it had such nice pretty icons and looked soooooo sweeeet.

*sigh* how i miss the good 'ol days. life can get soooooo boorrring now that my pc never crashes, never gets infected, always works, rarely infact make that never has to be shutdown. and i really do miss those pretty blue screens. and don't beleive the lie that XP does not have em.

and about the virri attacks because some 3rd party released software that was not probably well tested, last i heard "Internet Explorer", "Outlook Distress" and "MS Outlook" were developed by MicroSoft. there are more, you could always visit the web site of the "Cult of the dead cow" for an explanation on how to attack microsoft netmeeting. ofcourse the article is very old now, but then as now, the root of the problem was and is that winduhs is not really an OS. GNU/Limux, BSD, Unix.... these are Operating Systems. MacOSX is based on FreeBSD.

[Phoenix1]

Why do computers crash?

Because of bad installs, third party software and misuse. This occurs on Microsoft and RedHat operating systems. Microsoft is bigger and so there are more widely hear about problems. I can reel off a list of RedHat/Linux etc.. issues but that is not the point both have problems and Apple Macs do crash. As I said before though my PC does not crash and only did once right at the start and that was a user issue (I did not put memory in right :-S).

As I actaully said/meant computers do not get viruses, mainly due to third party software, but because of security issues all operating systems have. Again microsoft is the main target for atacks, if RedHat was in the dominant position it too would suffer attacks.

Catching a a virus...

Get a free software called zonealarm from www.zonealarm.com and also Norton anti-virus, number of attacks on my PC - unknow, maybe none, why do I not know, simply I have never had a virus on my PC so I have never needed to look. Other attacks can also come from 'spy-ware' which might come in a download without you knowing again 'ad-adaware' will sweep your pc and again I was clear on this one. One of the main cuplrits to spyware is software such as Kazaa.

The mini bomb cost..

Windows OS are supported right back to 1998 and will be supported for at least another year with XP support going on for many many years to come for, wait for this huge cost... free and it will even update it automatically. Windows Xp update only cost £80 now so far I have had my PC on for 10 hours, lets say I only have 2 hours a day (though it's probably 7) on average over two years that is 365x2 = 730 days x hours = 1460 hours so it is costing me 5.47p per hour to use the operating system with all its free addons.

Consumer choice....

There is an article on redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/about/opinions/xp.html saying how consumers have little choice. Most people do not want the hassle of choice on XP they want plug and play, eg they buy the product they want. If you buy a car for example you can customize it do a degree at the showroom but it is still the same car underneath and it works, kind of like XP. RedHat works but as I said it is not big enough or user friendly enough for the general public and yes it Xp looks "pretty" but then that is the point is looks good. People think they want choice but love the fact they do not have to go and sign up to a dial up account else where as one is proved, they like the fact that Media Player does everything for them there and they like that MSN conncets thme to friends across the globe. In my case I use winamp to play my music, they ignore or even uninstall Media Player etc.. and use your now custom version of windows XP all for just a few pennies an hour. Wonderful is ain't it.

XP opposition....

You don't like it don't buy it, simple.

If RedHat grows XP will improve and this is a good thing provided they are cross compatabile. There is already issues with Mac/Microsoft technology which does my head in somewhat. Global economies can not and will not be able to intergrate other operating systems if they do not work along side current systems.

It is all about fit for purpose. Currently Linux have the best servers so they are dominate in this market. I prefer Microsoft to RedHat and I prefer nails for a shelf and blue tak for posters, it's fitness for purpose.

[Rubinho]

Back onto topic...

I do think there is a place for OSS in racing. Manufacturers are very cagey about their engine management etc. so I don't think it is necessarily here. Think about what the big teams and manufacturers have that would be useful to smaller teams and amateur competitors and you start getting the idea what might be applicable though; off the top of my head:

• Race simulation
• Analysis of race data
• CFD and FEA codes
• Suspension geometry tools

There's also a place for open source hardware, for example:

• Data loggers
• EFI controllers (like Megasquirt)
• Traction control

Searching online, there doesn't seem to be much out there right now so there's definetly an opportunity to get projects started.

[fog_shadow]

funny, i thought you had to pay for Norton.

also, RedHat isn't the only version of linux available.

you want to play all types of media files, try mplayer and if you do not like typing commands with options, use the gui frontend called gmplayer.

there is another issue of memory management. try keeping a winduhs machine on continously. after 4 days win 9x-me will crawl. win nt/2k/xp last a little longer but by one and a half weeks they too begin to crawl. you'll need a memory management software such as memturbo or cacheman to defragment your ram, but even these softwares will not prevent the loss in performance after an extended period of time.

over here, i got a p3 with 128 mb of ram, i got more windows open than i can count, have 12 different desktops running at the same time, my music is playing on one terminal, i'm editing some files, and my system runs better than a machine with 256 mb ram but running winduhs.

i've used every version of winduhs right from 3.11 through 95, 95-osr2, 98, 98-se, me, nt4, 2k and xp. i also maintain some windows machines and i realize that for some people it just makes better sense to let them use windows. but there is no way i can accept that windows is better than linux.

the choice, performance and stability that i get on linux, puts it streets ahead of windows anyday. it's like comparing a ferrari with a normal road car. there may be fewer ferraris, but there's no denying which is better.

oh and that part about msn? works like a charm on linux. checkout amsn.sourceforge.net

infact i prefer to use non-ms software to communicate with MS-networks simply because it's safer to do so.

[DriverT]

Yes, as far as technical capabilities are concerned, Debian es on Redhat from a very large height. People do target Linux, as has already been seen with not only viruses, but the potentially far more damaging Rootkit.

But it is true that Microsoft only gets attacked because it is the biggest and more people run the system than any other. For the record, my windows installation crashes at least twice per day, usually when MSN is being used. So it looks as if MS isn't testing its own software.

I agree with you fog. Linux is the Ferrari here.

[Red]

Originally posted by fog_shadow
there is another issue of memory management. try keeping a winduhs machine on continously. after 4 days win 9x-me will crawl. win nt/2k/xp last a little longer but by one and a half weeks they too begin to crawl. you'll need a memory management software such as memturbo or cacheman to defragment your ram, but even these softwares will not prevent the loss in performance after an extended period of time.

Don't have experience in Me or Home, but I have 2k and XP machines with uptime measured in years. That's a tad more than "last a little longer than 4 days". I don't argue against "windows is resource eater" though.

Anyway, this Linux vs Windows debate is a bit puerile, in my opinion. Both Windows and Linux are just Operating systems. You don't buy/get an OS just for the sake of it; you need it to do some other usefull things. Only considering that Windows is getting me a pay-checque every month while Linux doesn't, and I don't even think of installing a distro.

[fog_shadow]

Red,
i make a little bit extra pocket money thanks to winduhs as well. if everyone started using linux, then i wouldn't be called to fix systems that have been attacked by a virus or have other problems associated with winduhs.

i will say this much about MS though, their office range of products and in particular WORD from 2k and above are pretty decent. that and Age of Empires are my favourite MS products.

now *ahem* coming back to the topic which is using OSS in F1, i see no reason why not. running any sort of CPU intensive jobs such as simulations are best run on an OS that just *knows* how to make the best use of the computing power of your machine. i work as an electronics design engineer and i can vouch that simulations run much faster and have never crashed on my linux box. in some cases, simulations that would take around 8 hours to run on win NT 4.0 would finish in around 5-6 hours on linux. some vendors provide a windows version of their software to run on linux under wine, and that too runs better.

i would imagine smaller teams that cannot afford the kind of computing power that the bigger teams have can always run linux on older hardware and get comparable computing performance.

but somehow, i don't think that is what the OP meant. i think he was referring to a manafacturer giving out the specs of his suspension, aero package, engine, transmission etc, so that others could go through it and suggest modifications improvements etc. it's a tricky question for sure. there will be too many legal angles to consider. what is to prevent another manafacturer from copying an open design, and if this were to happen, would the recepeint team be legally obliged to disclose their changes and improvements? in the software world we have the GPL to take care of this. F1 is a competitive sport. perhaps we can have a CART like system where there are some specs that everyone has to follow. but i remain one of the few that likes F1 the way it currently is. i would have liked to see them relax the rules instead of tightning them. this is the pinnacle of motorsport. if i wanted to watch spec car racing, i'd watch CART or IRL or F3000 etc.

there is a certain joy, a sublime sense of satisfaction in seeing new ideas that can give an advantage of even 0.001 seconds/lap. maybe it's the engineer in me talking, but i love to see machines that work better. just as i enjoy watching drivers drive the cars the way they are meant to be driven. just as i like to see an OS that uses hardware the way it was meant to be used.

[UncleLaz]

Guys,

Thank you all for your valuable comments, although at times I thought we were heading for a windows vs linux poll but we seem to be back on track.

I now would like to take this one stage further....

Basically my ultimate aim is to get involved in F1 at some point in my life other than the yearly trip to Silverstone. I would love to say that I am the best F1 rookie in the world, but I am not. It would be great if I was the best car designer / engineer / mechanic / etc the world has ever seen - but thats not true. Could open source be the answer?

Would it be possible to get a car designed, developed and working using ideas from the F1 community?

Would thousands of like minded people all thinking together be able to produce a team that can topple the likes of Ferrari?

I know there is a cost element, but ignore that at the moment!

Many thanks

Uncle Laz

[Red]

Originally posted by fog_shadow
Red,
i make a little bit extra pocket money thanks to winduhs as well. if everyone started using linux, then i wouldn't be called to fix systems that have been attacked by a virus or have other problems associated with winduhs.

You'll be called to fix problems associated with linugh The difference would be that you should master little details associated with 50 different distros. Look, not Windows cause problems, people do.

[Richy_Rich]

Linux/Windows? Both bobbins if you ask me.

Real men use BSD. OpenBSD if you want security and Mac OSX if you want usability (I did hear of one MotoGP team using OSX too)

As for the motorsport thing, I race myself and have written quite a few bits and bobs to help with things. The most ambitious was a palm pilot based data logger - unfortunately I didn't get much further than being able to log water temp, but only because I couldn't commit any more time to designing/fitting the sensors to my car. I may get back to it one day.

[fog_shadow]

Richy_Rich,
amen to that. BSD rawks!! i've got NetBSD and FreeBSD but am yet to install them. somehow i kind of fell in love with linux, however since i work a lot from the command line, i even browse this forum using links sometimes, i suppose it's about time i gave BSD a shot. but first Gentoo is the next peak that beckons

Red,
yes i am called to fix linux problems, the difference is that a) i make no money from linux as i do that for free and b) usually it's a one time call. linux as most or all unix flavours has this inherent strength wherein it protects users from themselves.

Uncle Laz,

Basically my ultimate aim is to get involved in F1 at some point in my life other than the yearly trip to Silverstone. I would love to say that I am the best F1 rookie in the world, but I am not. It would be great if I was the best car designer / engineer / mechanic / etc the world has ever seen - but thats not true. Could open source be the answer?

Would it be possible to get a car designed, developed and working using ideas from the F1 community?

it would be fun i suppose to be able to do what you mention above, however to actually get a working car would require a lot more $$$$ then we could master up. but i'm willing to stick my neck out and offer my skills. designing complex digital logic is what i do best. if you could give me an idea on how engine management works and what is required, i should in theory be able to design the brains of an ECU, ironically OSS provides me most of the tools that i would require, "vim" to code my designs and "icarus verilog" and "gtkwave" to simulate them to see that they actually work. the link provided by Rubinho is a pretty good place to start. we'll need a lot more people though.

shadow