Re-introduction of multi-class GT structure in ACO-style racing?

[Deleted]

Basically, there has been some discussion about this and other things over at the GTE Speculation thread, as well as over at RLM forum. Here's my original message from that other thread:

Originally Posted by Chiana

I've been suggesting on the RLM forum that the lack of GT1 is actually hurting GTE pretty badly, as every car needs to be fitted into one category and therefore more performance balancing is needed (or not needed but you know what I mean) to keep everybody happy and fit everybodys needs. Now you have just one class to put your car into if you wanna enter the biggest sportscar race in the world

We need a class for higher performance models with higher displacement, and one for slightly slower. Not this stupid Pro/Am crap we have now but let professional teams and makes race in the category their car fits the best, like in the past.

I seriously think this is one of the (many) issues why the class has slowly begun to go downhill

What do you think, should we just stay at where we are or re-introduce LMGT1? Not necessarily to resurrect the old format, but in some shape of form?

Note: this thread isn't about bringing GT3 to ACO style racing, that wouldn't help the situation at all...
Note II: GTE-PRO and GTE-AM doesn't count as multi-class

[I Rosputnik]

The problem with more classes is when they begin to nip at the heels of LMP2. The higher GT class would be pegged back and in turn the lower class would suffer as a result.

LMP2 could become some thing as a mid way between road car and full prototype, like the Ferrari FXX?

(In regards to GT3, I agree that bringing them into Le Mans would have adverse effects due to the way it operates (BoP), but I'll agree with what was mentioned in Midweek Motorsport and say they could race at Le Mans as a support race.)

[MitchZ06]

I'd just improve the performance of the current GTE cars, remove the displacement restriction, allow things like carbon brakes and larger aero on the Pro cars and leave the Am cars with the current regs. It's not that simple I know but it'd be a start.

[busdegnao]

the only form that i think (not taking gt3 cars) is:
LMGTE1: most evolved GTE model with only pro line-up, only for work/official teams.
LMGTE2: previous years GTE model (or purposely detuned) with only pro-am line-up and only for private teams.
Is hard to image that a manufacter will be happy to produce a GTE with a larger engine for "GTE1" class and the same GTE with a smaller engine. GTE cars are already able to run close to 2010 GT1 timelaps, will be enough give them a lower min. weight and restrictors brakes with a free formula engine.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

I'd just improve the performance of the current GTE cars, remove the displacement restriction, allow things like carbon brakes and larger aero on the Pro cars and leave the Am cars with the current regs. It's not that simple I know but it'd be a start.

Fix the engine regs- I think this is already planned with the introduction of hybrids in the next couple years.

Carbon brakes in gtepro sounds good to me. Would be easy enough to remove those as the cars trickle down to gteam.

[MitchZ06]

Forgot to mention remove some weight too. Swapping carbon brakes for steel and adding weight to go from Pro to Am would be rather simple.

[lms]

Originally Posted by Chiana

What do you think, should we just stay at where we are or re-introduce LMGT1?

for one car? (viper) No. The solution is pretty simple, just dont dont let these gt1 cars to race at lm and wec to keep (almost) everyone happy for the moment. When there is more interest in more powerful "lmgt1" cars and all the manufacturers support this and if it wont theraten the existance of the old gte, then it would be okay. On the other hand these machines would be at the back of the lmp2 cars, so I think 4 classes may be a bit too much. with a pure gt grid it would be okay, but not with the lmp cars.

[lms]

Originally Posted by busdegnao

the only form that i think (not taking gt3 cars) is:
LMGTE1: most evolved GTE model with only pro line-up, only for work/official teams.
LMGTE2: previous years GTE model (or purposely detuned) with only pro-am line-up and only for private teams.

these are pretty much equivalent to the current gte pro and gte am categories.

[RacingSportsCars]

Personally I would prefer something like in the 60s and 70s when there were simply unified rules as how a team or manufacturer can modify street GT model for racing. There was a required minimum production over the 12 and 24 month to classify such road-going car as a GT, thus avoid prototypes like Dauer 962 racing as a GT car, and that was all.

Back then there may not have been such variety like in current GT3 or ALMS GT but there was a real sense in racing for manufacturers titles as the speed of the cars was derived from their real production models. Today with all that stupid balancing, the race results does say nothing about the GT car performances. It just reflects how they were balanced or handicapped.

Than the cars could be divided into several classes by some criteria. Engine size (FIA GT Group 3 and Group 4) or general performance (SCCA Production Classes) was used in the past.

Today's GT racing is nice but so much artificial that there is almost no point in any kind of manufacturers championships at all. I know my idea is not realistic these days but if I could dream of something, I would return to the GT and racing roots in general .

[Purist]

LMS, it also holds true for the Corvette, which technically has a 6.2-litre engine, but was told to run a 5.5-litre lump for their full program beginning in 2010. If we want Mercedes to be able to run their GT at Le Mans, they would also need allowances to run their 6.2-litre V8 in the SLS AMG. If Aston decides it's simpler to run their GT programs just using the V12, that engine too is above the current 5.5-litre allowance.

Also, did they drop the maximum displacement for forced induction engines when they did it for atmospheric engines? If so, I would imagine the new McLaren is ineligible for GT2 now.

[Mt. Lynx]

I think we only need one class of cars. The Pro/Am idea works fine as a divider.

My own take on a GT class goes something like this:
Chassis: anything goes. The entire chassis from the homologation model must be retained though. The differences will be mountingpoints of engine and suspension. An all carbon chassis would have to retain all points as original f ex.
Drivetrain: engine and gearbox layout must be retained as original. Rear wheel drive only. Gearbox could actually be a spec unit (well... It'd have to fit a wide range of engines) Max power 450 kW. Spec ECU wich limits acceleration to 0-100kph in 3s and then matches the rest of the powerband to the torquecurve. Top speed limited to 300kph.
Due to the ECU, there is no real need for a traction control system. No ABS.
I would also like to control downforce. Something like 1000 kg at 250kph. Hard to control, but sensors in the suspension could do the trick.
Minimum weight 1250kg.

Looking at what P2 will become, I don't think they will be competitors on track. P2 cars ate much more efficient in every way. They only lack in power comparatively.

[I Rosputnik]

Just to be a little random, would a new take on the GT4 regs work as a lower class in ACO racing, with an emphasis on entry level cars such as the 370z, Camaro, GT86 and Boxster?

Then in turn open up GTE a little more?

[busdegnao]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx

I think we only need one class of cars. The Pro/Am idea works fine as a divider.

My own take on a GT class goes something like this:
Chassis: anything goes. The entire chassis from the homologation model must be retained though. The differences will be mountingpoints of engine and suspension. An all carbon chassis would have to retain all points as original f ex.
Drivetrain: engine and gearbox layout must be retained as original. Rear wheel drive only. Gearbox could actually be a spec unit (well... It'd have to fit a wide range of engines) Max power 450 kW. Spec ECU wich limits acceleration to 0-100kph in 3s and then matches the rest of the powerband to the torquecurve. Top speed limited to 300kph.
Due to the ECU, there is no real need for a traction control system. No ABS.
I would also like to control downforce. Something like 1000 kg at 250kph. Hard to control, but sensors in the suspension could do the trick.
Minimum weight 1250kg.

Looking at what P2 will become, I don't think they will be competitors on track. P2 cars ate much more efficient in every way. They only lack in power comparatively.

in early 2000 an electronic device to keep under control the power has been tested on 550 maranello GT, but didn't obtain good result. An electronic control of downforce via suspension sensors is a good idea, a little bit hard to make right because these sensors on suspensions in an uphill section will detect a downforce higher than what the bodywork really generates.
I've read about carbon brakes too, the use of c.brakes will increase costs and cars won't obtain so high benefits that justifies the cost; but because their longer lifetime and heat resistence, should be mandatory in 12/24H races so won't be necessary anymore all those repairs that have been necessary during the le mans race.

[Speed-King]

I'd actually go for three classes:

GTX: Start with a production shell, then go nuts. Any engine from a manufacturers range is good, reposition it however you like and do whatever you want with your suspension pick up points. I.e. built RACECARS and no whatsoever BoP.

GTO: Closer to production, no waivers of any kind, for cars over 4 litres of displacement

GTU: The counterpart to GTO, for cars under 4 liters.

With a X-class format, guys like BMW can compete for top-GT honors, but everybody will know that these cars have very little in common with the street cars. The O and U classes would be a real test for roadcars.

[Purist]

Mt. Lynx, I can't get behind the standardized acceleration thing, or mandated uniform top speed. Such limits will make passing within the class EXTREMELY difficult, and at Le Mans, it will be worse, because the slipstream will become far less effective. At the end of those 5 long straights, you'll just hit a brick wall trying to pass anybody.

The cars are similar enough in their various performance characteristics already, in no small part because the weight differential between the heaviest and lightest cars in class is a fraction of what it once was in GT racing. At one time, you could have had a variation of something like 900-3000lb between all the various production cars running at Le Mans.

Also, that 4.0-litre Porsche, I think, you'd have a hard time balancing that against the Corvette with the sort of system you're talking about, because that 5.5-litre V8 (or what should be a superchargeed, 6.2-litre lump coming from the C6 ZR1) has so much more torque than the Porsche Flat-6, and makes both its power and torque at much lower revs. In addition, if everyone is making roughly 600hp, any existing BMW model is sunk. The Aston Martin Vantage might be in some difficulties too. The Porsche 911 isn't bad aerodynamically, but if you take away other advantages it might have, that car may well be fundamentally uncompetitive in your system. If you try to be equitable to keep the smaller engines in the game, I think you'll choke off the Viper, and possibly the Corvette, too much for there to be a point in running those cars. The Viper presents the difficulty of dealing with immense torque and balancing that as well.

BoP seems about the only way to really cover the wide range of vehicles we have in this single GT class. As much as I might not like the tinkering, what we're getting, in the ALMS at least, has so far been incredible. So, practically speaking, I'd rather not screw with a good thing.

[Pandamasque]

I'd keep GTE as a single class but introduce 3 'subclasses' or 'brackets' if you will. Any production based 2-door car with driven real wheels would fall in one of the brackets based on the engine displacement and would be given a minimum weight accordingly. So that the most powerful cars like the 7-litre Corvettes, Vipers and V12 Astons would be the heaviest of the bunch, competing against lighter Ferraris and Porsches with smaller engines, with the likes of Lotus and Ginetta in the less powerful but ultra-light subclass. All of these 3 'subclasses' must be equally competitive for the overall GTE win on a theoretical 'average' circuit. More powerful cars then would be given smaller restrictors for Le Mans. The scoring within GTE should be overall only (except GTE-Pro / Am, but that's another matter).

Example:
GTE-1: N/A over 4.5 litres (or equivalent smaller capacity for a forced induction engine) / 1300kg - for cars that used to be GT1 meterial
GTE-2: N/A 3.0-4.5 litres (or equivalent smaller capacity for a forced induction engine) / 1150kg - pretty much GT2
GTE-3: N/A under 3 litres (or equivalent smaller capacity for a forced induction engine) / 1000kg - Ginettas, Evoras, Caymans, even things like GT86

But this whole thing should be kept for anoraks on forums. The racing should look as if it's all one class.

Oh, and introduce some serious cost-control. Maybe make manufacturers sell customer cars at a capped cost or something. Also get rid of paddle-shift boxes and mandate a simple sequential solution.

[Jonerz]

I voted no, despite being generally in favor of a lower-spec GT category along the lines of Grand-Am's GT category or perhaps the GS class to replace GTC in ACO style racing - particularly the ALMS.

The ACO needs to fix the niggling problems with GTE, lack of hybrid and alternative drivetrain legality, stupid engine displacement limitations, entirely too many waivers and unnecessary BoP (certainly on the IMSA-side) and see if GTE can sink or swim.

Despite grid numbers in the ALMS in particular showing little indication of growth in GT, saturating GT with more similar-looking cars at this juncture doesn't seem wise.

Chris

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Despite grid numbers in the ALMS in particular showing little indication of growth in GT, saturating GT with more similar-looking cars at this juncture doesn't seem wise.

Not sure how introducing GTE-AM to the ALMS (which I think is going to happen if Black Swan and some of those other whiners get their will through) is going to improve that situation...

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Basically, there has been some discussion about this and other things over at the GTE Speculation thread, as well as over at RLM forum. Here's my original message from that other thread:



What do you think, should we just stay at where we are or re-introduce LMGT1? Not necessarily to resurrect the old format, but in some shape of form?

Note: this thread isn't about bringing GT3 to ACO style racing, that wouldn't help the situation at all...
Note II: GTE-PRO and GTE-AM doesn't count as multi-class

[off topic]
Awesome thread at RLM, never have I felt more at home hindy's comments were awesome...Thanks for sharing.....

BTW you've earned my *respect, for stating your displeasure with corvette's BoP even though your a huge corvette fan. Great show of character.

*as much or as little as that means
[/off topic]

[Mt. Lynx]

Originally Posted by Purist

Mt. Lynx, I can't get behind the standardized acceleration thing, or mandated uniform top speed. Such limits will make passing within the class EXTREMELY difficult, and at Le Mans, it will be worse, because the slipstream will become far less effective. At the end of those 5 long straights, you'll just hit a brick wall trying to pass anybody.

The cars are similar enough in their various performance characteristics already, in no small part because the weight differential between the heaviest and lightest cars in class is a fraction of what it once was in GT racing. At one time, you could have had a variation of something like 900-3000lb between all the various production cars running at Le Mans.

Also, that 4.0-litre Porsche, I think, you'd have a hard time balancing that against the Corvette with the sort of system you're talking about, because that 5.5-litre V8 (or what should be a superchargeed, 6.2-litre lump coming from the C6 ZR1) has so much more torque than the Porsche Flat-6, and makes both its power and torque at much lower revs. In addition, if everyone is making roughly 600hp, any existing BMW model is sunk. The Aston Martin Vantage might be in some difficulties too. The Porsche 911 isn't bad aerodynamically, but if you take away other advantages it might have, that car may well be fundamentally uncompetitive in your system. If you try to be equitable to keep the smaller engines in the game, I think you'll choke off the Viper, and possibly the Corvette, too much for there to be a point in running those cars. The Viper presents the difficulty of dealing with immense torque and balancing that as well.

BoP seems about the only way to really cover the wide range of vehicles we have in this single GT class. As much as I might not like the tinkering, what we're getting, in the ALMS at least, has so far been incredible. So, practically speaking, I'd rather not screw with a good thing.

Standardized top speed is already in place. I figured a limited accel would equalize torque curves and make BoP less of an issue.
Downforce measure would be easy using sensors though. Flat out in a straight line and then look at the telemetry.
I fail to see how the cars could be a limitation in my proposal. What I want is equal footing, exciting racing and good appeal to as many as possible.
Let's face it, average Joe don't care, and usually don't know about any BoP or waivers. They see things they recognize and like it for that. Granted, many sportscars fans are tech nerds or brand specific nerds or both, but I doubt that the nerds are a majority when it comes to audience attendance, be it live or via TV.
This is partly why I want a rule set that is somewhat invisible, and doesn't take a thousand waivers or BoP:ing all year long.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by arakis

[off topic]BTW you've earned my *respect, for stating your displeasure with corvette's BoP even though your a huge corvette fan. Great show of character.

*as much or as little as that means
[/off topic]

I don't like the unnecessarily big restrictors and other breaks on the Corvette as they bring nothing to the table and are just a product of good lobbying process from GM (which again is not their fault but the organizers when they allow this circus to go on), HOWEVER I do think that the ZR1 is a very good car for GT racing. Not as well engineered as the C5-R, or the original C6.R, but still a good car. I aknowledge the size of the waiver list it has but frankly now that the GT2/GTE rulebook has become a bit of a joke you can kinda look past it and say 'meh', everybody's doing it, and if they're not, well they are full of BoP then... that's still not a proper excuse but what can you do. However back when the car was more heavily restricted than it is now (mainly 09/10) it still managed to beat most of it's competitors so I know that it can win alone too. With the bigger displacement engine in 2009 it also showed it's capabilities really well and I think it was a massive mistake from ACO to deny the use of it.

I've shown this list qute a few times already, but this is how I would see the 'natural' ranking of the current GT cars. With bigger engine vette could probably outscore the 458 too a few times @ certain circuits, especially on the fast ones where they always shine (Le Mans, RA, Mosport etc) but I must say that the Ferrari is the better performing car in terms of overall package, it is not overly difficult to admit that

Despite all of this and what you may or may not think of me, I don't lost my sleep because of this :P it may be kinda annoying to have this mess on our hands and all that but it's still a victory if Corvette passes the line first, and I take it gladly. It is still a good, fun class and much better than the alternatives, but something needs to be done before it turns into GT3

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

I'd keep GTE as a single class but introduce 3 'subclasses' or 'brackets' if you will. Any production based 2-door car with driven real wheels would fall in one of the brackets based on the engine displacement and would be given a minimum weight accordingly. So that the most powerful cars like the 7-litre Corvettes, Vipers and V12 Astons would be the heaviest of the bunch, competing against lighter Ferraris and Porsches with smaller engines, with the likes of Lotus and Ginetta in the less powerful but ultra-light subclass. All of these 3 'subclasses' must be equally competitive for the overall GTE win on a theoretical 'average' circuit. More powerful cars then would be given smaller restrictors for Le Mans. The scoring within GTE should be overall only (except GTE-Pro / Am, but that's another matter).

Example:
GTE-1: N/A over 4.5 litres (or equivalent smaller capacity for a forced induction engine) / 1300kg - for cars that used to be GT1 meterial
GTE-2: N/A 3.0-4.5 litres (or equivalent smaller capacity for a forced induction engine) / 1150kg - pretty much GT2
GTE-3: N/A under 3 litres (or equivalent smaller capacity for a forced induction engine) / 1000kg - Ginettas, Evoras, Caymans, even things like GT86

But this whole thing should be kept for anoraks on forums. The racing should look as if it's all one class.

I really like this idea! Having all the cars stay in one class keeps the car count high and doesn't confuse the average viewer!

[Purist]

There is no hard-and-fast speed limiter in GT2, that I am aware of; the ACO has simply made it known that they would prefer the GT2s not exceed 290km/h, which isn't really an issue anywhere but at Le Mans itself. It wouldn't be an issue at all if they hadn't neutered LMP2 such that those cars can barely get past the GTs on the straights, regardless of the circuit.

If you limit a category's potential performance, so that every car has the same potential in most every area, passing will become nigh impossible. If you can't get a better launch out of the corner, because your acceleration is exactly the same as everyone else, you can't gain any ground until you're a ways down the straight, and the slipstream really kicks in. With a rev/speed limiter though, you're likely going to hit a brick wall when you try to pull out of the slipstream, and you just won't be able to pass at all.

Let the cars capitalize on their natural strengths as much as is reasonably possible.

I'm still mentally working out my thoughts on a GT scheme; hopefully I'll have that ready to post here soon.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I'd actually go for three classes:

GTX: Start with a production shell, then go nuts. Any engine from a manufacturers range is good, reposition it however you like and do whatever you want with your suspension pick up points. I.e. built RACECARS and no whatsoever BoP.

GTO: Closer to production, no waivers of any kind, for cars over 4 litres of displacement

GTU: The counterpart to GTO, for cars under 4 liters.

With a X-class format, guys like BMW can compete for top-GT honors, but everybody will know that these cars have very little in common with the street cars. The O and U classes would be a real test for roadcars.

Hmm, I think the GTX class is echoing the Group 5/IMSA GTP/GT500 class.

Still, I wish the GTE-Pro should have no limitations on engine displacements, as well as having hybrid drivetrains.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by RacingSportsCars

Personally I would prefer something like in the 60s and 70s when there were simply unified rules as how a team or manufacturer can modify street GT model for racing. There was a required minimum production over the 12 and 24 month to classify such road-going car as a GT, thus avoid prototypes like Dauer 962 racing as a GT car, and that was all.

Back then there may not have been such variety like in current GT3 or ALMS GT but there was a real sense in racing for manufacturers titles as the speed of the cars was derived from their real production models. Today with all that stupid balancing, the race results does say nothing about the GT car performances. It just reflects how they were balanced or handicapped.

Than the cars could be divided into several classes by some criteria. Engine size (FIA GT Group 3 and Group 4) or general performance (SCCA Production Classes) was used in the past.

Today's GT racing is nice but so much artificial that there is almost no point in any kind of manufacturers championships at all. I know my idea is not realistic these days but if I could dream of something, I would return to the GT and racing roots in general .

Best idea ever...+1