[WEC] SCG 007: Glickenhaus Le Mans LMP1 Hypercar

[Bentley03]

I know there's been reaction over the last few days on 'LMP Future Regs', but as the first to announce a 2020/21 regs 'Hypercar' programme, I think Jim's new baby warrants it's own thread on here!

What we know so far:
https://glickenhausracing.com/scg-00...Ivp4W6qnPc1PJM
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2018/1...-full-wec.html
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2018/1...ure-plans.html

Terrific news and a very exciting programme, will be reading (and eventually watching ) with great interest!

Good luck to Jim and all those involved!

[S griffin]

Glad to see someone is planning early. Let’s enjoy the next few seasons first though

[GT6]

Agreed lets hope they get all the help they deserve and we see the car in a few years

[EffectiveSprinkles]

I'm slightly skeptical, but the buzz has been good so far. I wish Jim all the best in realizing this, it would add a lot to the championship to see him on the grid at Le Mans in 2021.

[Juntos]

And to who is Jim buying the hybrid system?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Juntos

And to who is Jim buying the hybrid system?

Tbd. If manufacturers have to make theirs available to purchase, it might be a good idea to wait until they announce their programs.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Tbd. If manufacturers have to make theirs available to purchase, it might be a good idea to wait until they announce their programs.

As we understand it, it will be the same system for all.
If not we will make our own as we did for P 4/5 C which we won the FIA Alternative Energies Championship Cup with adapting existing systems.

Full Press release:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wTE...iEavbCyoYBaJ7M

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Napolis

As we understand it, it will be the same system for all.

Oh dear...

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Oh dear...

The same hybrid system for costs limitation. The ICE architecture will still be free.

Good to see that a manufacturer wants to be seriously involved.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by PascaLM

The same hybrid system for costs limitation. The ICE architecture will still be free.

This is the first time hearing of that, the press releases so far have spoken quite clearly of bespoke hybrid systems developed by individual manufacturers.

A feeling that Mr Glickenhaus has not actually grasped the proposed regulation package is starting to creep up on me...

[Akrapovic]

The manufacturers have the draft regulations. Have those been publically released yet? If not then I'm sure they have a better idea than any of us.

[gregc]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

This is the first time hearing of that, the press releases so far have spoken quite clearly of bespoke hybrid systems developed by individual manufacturers.

A feeling that Mr Glickenhaus has not actually grasped the proposed regulation package is starting to creep up on me...

Assuming that Glickenhaus would be regarded as a privateer entry, from DSC's piece here (this information originally came from one of the ACO releases)



How is there a difference between the cost for factories and Privateers?
One major difference is that any homologated hybrid drive system used by a factory MUST be made commercially available to a privateer at a fixed cost of 2 Million Euro per season.
What engines are eligible?


Any engine configuration and architecture is eligible with a power limit of 520kW (c.700 bhp), a limit on the number of engines useable per season will be imposed.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by gregc

Assuming that Glickenhaus would be regarded as a privateer entry, from DSC's piece here (this information originally came from one of the ACO releases)

Indeed, so unless something has drastically changed in the draft regulations Mr. Glickenhaus would be wise to glance at those documents again...

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Indeed, so unless something has drastically changed in the draft regulations Mr. Glickenhaus would be wise to glance at those documents again...

No, think he's read it correctly. He would be a privateer based on the current standard they've said for the LMP1s and he could buy the hybrid from Toyota, or others. Which is exactly what everyone else has said, and the quoted article lists as well, manufacturers HAVE to make the unit available. And there's no way they would call him a manufacturer, although the ACO it's dumb enough to shoot themselves just to be right

[TF110]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

No, think he's read it correctly. He would be a privateer based on the current standard they've said for the LMP1s and he could buy the hybrid from Toyota, or others. Which is exactly what everyone else has said, and the quoted article lists as well, manufacturers HAVE to make the unit available. And there's no way they would call him a manufacturer, although the ACO it's dumb enough to shoot themselves just to be right

Maybe the wording is being read wrong but it sounded like "the same for all" meant a standard hybrid system, ie spec. That's how I read it at first myself.

[broadrun96]

I think they are going for spec but not "spec." I agree the wording seems to indicate it's pretty much the same thing for everyone, think the teams just get to build their own mousetrap to the modern F1 style design parameters. Think we will end up with all the hybrid systems being almost copies of each other with a manufacturer badge on the side. However, who else is looking to join? McLaren said we'll wait a year thanks, Audi/VW/Porsche seem to be moved on FE/electrics, Ferrari (insert FCA badging exercise here) well flip a coin for rumor of the week, Jaguar/Tata have FE to play with, Ford seems to be confused about road hybrids anymore, Chevy/Cadillac haven't shown interest, Nissan well that's a story that most think would bite us in the ass, Honda has had a toe in and the NSX design philosophy could be a good base.

To me it feels like the ACO needs to meet with someone, or request it from Gibson, outside of the manufacturers to spec a hybrid system privateers can buy off the shelf. Sadly that would make too much sense, be derided as spec and in violation of the spirit of the rules and otherwise cause the collapse of ACO racing so the ACO would either make it required for all cars or so expensive as to crush the teams trying to buy them.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by TF110

Maybe the wording is being read wrong but it sounded like "the same for all" meant a standard hybrid system, ie spec. That's how I read it at first myself.

I'm not sure there is any other way to read it. The text explicitly says 'homologated hybrid system by a manufacturer'. So any manufacturer can build their own system but has to put it up for sale. I see no way how that can be read as 'same for all'.

[canaglia]

"What engines are eligible?


Any engine configuration and architecture is eligible with a power limit of 520kW (c.700 bhp), a limit on the number of engines useable per season will be imposed."

Yeah, this basically means nothing....
you can't compare a 700hp 7L V8 GM revving up at 7000rpm to a 700hp ferrari 6.2L V12 revving up to 9000rpm just because they achieve the same power output.
GM will have a better fuel milliage anyway and just because of that would be required a fuel tank bop to set a comparable stint lenght for everyone.

And what about diesels? nothing seems to prevent it.
A caveman tech 1300Nm/700hp turbodiesel will overkill anything else.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

I'm not sure there is any other way to read it. The text explicitly says 'homologated hybrid system by a manufacturer'. So any manufacturer can build their own system but has to put it up for sale. I see no way how that can be read as 'same for all'.

I meant what Mr. Glickenhaus posted. His words made it sound like it was a spec system for the kers. I agree with you about that being contrary to the information out there. Just sounds like a cap on the power and cost. It would be a shame if it was a single supplier, that's not what the fans want.

[GasperG]

Engine peak power and regulation limited power are two different thing. You can have engine with 1.000 HP, but you must limit it at 700HP.

What is the point?

If you oversize the engine and limit it to 700 HP, then you can have that 700 HP all the time on the wheels, between the gear shifts.

We can also see this phenomenon with fuel flow restriction regulations, some were very loud (@knighty comes to mind ) here how NA engine in Rebellion won't be competitive because of magical "torque" and efficiency that turbo engines have. Even the regulators didn't believe it, so they have a separate EoT for NA engine, but as it turned out not much (is there any?) of difference was necessary for them to be competitive.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Engine peak power and regulation limited power are two different thing. You can have engine with 1.000 HP, but you must limit it at 700HP.

What is the point?

If you oversize the engine and limit it to 700 HP, then you can have that 700 HP all the time on the wheels, between the gear shifts.

We can also see this phenomenon with fuel flow restriction regulations, some were very loud (@knighty comes to mind ) here how NA engine in Rebellion won't be competitive because of magical "torque" and efficiency that turbo engines have. Even the regulators didn't believe it, so they have a separate EoT for NA engine, but as it turned out not much (is there any?) of difference was necessary for them to be competitive.

Consider that R13 chassis and aero are much better than other private lmp1; maybe even better than toyota!
at le mans R13 scored the overall best first sector time and the 2nd overall best third sector. During an onboard, a R13 was clearly able to run flatout at porsche sector.
Then think also that private lmp1 use the same toyota compound, so NA gibson lower torque release should help them a lot with rear tyres wearate compared to insane torque released to rear wheels by AER/nismo cars.

Torque is important but is not everything. 911 RSR torque is in the range of 500Nm and dominated LM against >600-700Nm rivals.

And about future hypercar engines, well, you need high power, lower consumes and a more than decent components lifespan....
guess the only way to achieve this is to make the engine rev as low as possible.... that's way I expect a "min" displacement over 5L NA dyno V8 or turbo up to 3.5-4L.

[Irie]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Consider that R13 chassis and aero are much better than other private lmp1; maybe even better than toyota!
at le mans R13 scored the overall best first sector time and the 2nd overall best third sector. During an onboard, a R13 was clearly able to run flatout at porsche sector.
Then think also that private lmp1 use the same toyota compound, so NA gibson lower torque release should help them a lot with rear tyres wearate compared to insane torque released to rear wheels by AER/nismo cars.

Torque is important but is not everything. 911 RSR torque is in the range of 500Nm and dominated LM against >600-700Nm rivals.

And about future hypercar engines, well, you need high power, lower consumes and a more than decent components lifespan....
guess the only way to achieve this is to make the engine rev as low as possible.... that's way I expect a "min" displacement over 5L NA dyno V8 or turbo up to 3.5-4L.

I don't think R13 aero is better than Toyota's. Probably they did just run more downforce

[GasperG]

The "insane" torque is nothing more than hard to control surge of power because of turbo engine, I agree this tears down your tires more.

Torque is nothing magical, power = torque * revs

If the power curve is flat at 700 HP between the gear shifts, then it's all the same, it doesn't matter how much torque you have at the drive shaft.

[TF110]

I was thinking about the Glickenhaus project talking about how they're going to be using GM power for the engine. I wonder what engine they are thinking? Maybe the Caddy's dpi engine? The one in the current GTE Vette? With the weight at over 950kg for the cars, big engines with lots of torque should be a good bet. No reason to worry much about the fuel economy either because they are all going to be capped around 700hp. This is probably the most exciting thing about the new rules for me. We might actually have more than one engine that makes some noise!

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Irie

I don't think R13 aero is better than Toyota's. Probably they did just run more downforce

third best overall second sector at le mans qualifying for R13.
They had more downforce for sure, but actually because of finest aero.