Rover - candidate for a mercy killing?

[garcon]

I split this out of a rant I started in the motorshow thread.

You see I'm worried about Rover. Really worried. The 75/MG ZT is a fine car, one of the best in its class. So it's a shame that the new Rover V8/MG ZT 265 is by necessity a botch job using ancient US hardware. The asthmatic Ford 4.6 V8 struggles to make the stated 265bhp. And at around £35k fully loaded it is simply too expensive (you could buy a BMW 530i for less, and it ain't much slower). But the ZT 265 does have character and will attract a small but loyal following I'm sure.

The new V8 isn't the worst of the 'new' MG Rover as we'll see, but it's symptomatic of the problem. Back in the early 80s, British Leyland was in a woeful mess. Rover needed a new flagship, but there was precious little money (or skill) available to design another great luxury car worthy of the name. Instead, we got that awful concoction of old and new that was the SD1. Now I used to love the SD1 V8s, but at 14 you don't tend to worry about atrocious parts quality and down-right shoddy workmanship and build. The reason there's so few of them left is that they were truly awful. At least the V8's had a reliable old Buick small block lump in them. The 2300/2600 six cylinder cars didn't even have that going for them, and often the engine would expire before the body disintegrated around it (which was saying something). Thus, the great car that would rescue the company became the millstone that nearly killed it. The SD1 does live on in one form - it is built and sold new in India, badged as a Standard, thus continuing a long history of British cars living well beyond their natural life in the subcontinent. Call it a 'hand me down' to our less well off siblings.

Since then, what is now MG Rover has been through turbulent times, and has never been able to invest the kind of money and time needed to develop a truly competitive range of cars. With the exception of the superb 75 (which is still suffering from the ridiculous way Rover hyped it on release), the current range harks back to Rover's tie up with Honda back in the early 90s. The 25 and 45 are - apart from the odd cosmetic revision - effectively 15 year old cars.

Which leads to the most painful part of the tale, and the ultimate cruel irony. You see, Rover needed something to compete in the city/small car market, in the sector the Metro used to occupy. So without the resources to develop one, Rover had to go in search of a new partner to help them fill this particular gap in their line-up. And where did rover manage to find such a partnership? With their old friends in India. Tata, perhaps most famous for their jeep that self destructs in a manner previously only reserved for Action Man toys, also make a small car called the Indica. A basic, 3 door runabout, using bits of 80s and 90s technology bound together with plastic so cheap it must've been rejected by Renault. I give you the "new" Rover CityRover. A Tata Indica with a Rover badge on it. A car so bad it knocks Yugo off top spot for the worst car ever sold in the UK. This is the desperate gasping final breath of a fatally wounded dinosaur.

I'd consider buying a ZT 265, but I've become convinced MG Rover won't be around long enough to fulfil the 3 year warranty.

[garcon]

By the way, acknowledgements to one of the evo magazine columnists (I'll check which when I get home)for the idea behind this particular piece. I've said pretty much what he said in this month's issue - but in my words...

[Dick Spanner]

I thought it sounded familiar!

I agree with most of your sentiment's although if I remember correctly it was actually BMW who hyped the 75 and claimed that it it would be the best handling front wheel drive ever built. The ZTV8 does seem to be getting good reviews though, and the choice of engine doesn't seem to be hampering it too much yet.

Rover have, I think done very well with modernising the current range but as you say they have been around a long time and the shapes are just too familiar.

I guess the 45/ZR replacement would probably be nearing production by now had TWR not gone belly up and they are now giving it to Lotus but if it ever makes production I'll be amazed. I also hope if it does ever enter the showroom's it has had a make over because the concept car shown at the last Birmingham motor show looked ghastly.

The Citycar's lack of quality must be an embarrasment to the dealers and it smacks of desperation. It will probably sell in small number's to OAP's who have alway's bought "British" but whether that will cover the cost of it's development I seriously doubt. (The original Mini never, ever turned a profit though so I guess it's in keeping )

Lastly, I can't believe that the money spent on buying QVale and turning the Mangusta into the SV(?) couldn't have been better spent elsewhere, MG Rover do not need a supercar that sell's in small number's to people who wish to spend Porsche money on an inferior car, they could have spent that dosh on developing the Citycar into something competitive.

[429CJ]

Only 265 hp? They should use Mustang Cobras 305hp version of this 4.6 L engine.

[bella]

i would never buy a rover or an mg. i suspect they should keep the new cars they're bringing out in countries where you can't get really decent second hand cars for the same money it takes for the new rover..

[rdjones]

Rover don't get me started on that one. The company are in a real mess.

My dad has a 75 and it is a wonderful car and I really mean that. I am also a big fan of the ZT's. I used to have a 25 (which has now been replaced by a Clio after my accident) it was a nice car, but I really do think both the 25/ZR and 45/ZS are looking dated and I do not like the make over they have just given them.

As for the City Rover they just look and feel cheap, in fact I would call them tacky. I also don't like the Streetwise just do not understand why they have built it I really don't.

IMO if they don't do some thing quickly the Rover will not be around in 3 years time. Sorry I wouldn't be buying another one and yes I agree with Bella you can buy a far better 2nd hand car for the same money.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Any chance of a picture, I like looking at ugly cars.

[garcon]

For reasons of good taste, I'm afraid I can't fulfil that request...

[Dick Spanner]

Sorry Garcon, the need's of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Here 'tis.

[Dick Spanner]

and from the rear....

[garcon]

Indian!

(Only funny if you're a fan of Goodness gracious Me!...)

Meanwhile, here's a pic of the Streetwise. Hideous, in a comical sort of way...

:

[Dick Spanner]

I'm almost embarrased to say this but I don't actually think the Streetwise is that bad an effort at funking up an existing model. I personally wouldn't buy one but I'm sure it will appeal to enough people to cover it's development costs. Also in this instance Rover seem to have been first past the post in filling this niche, VW have now brought out the Polo Dune and Fiat had a similar themed Panda at the Motor show.

Actually the Streetwise would look great as the base for Rovers F2 rally car if they are still running it.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Actually, I think the Streetwise would look pretty good if they could afford to paint the whole car! BTW, what a stupid name!

The cityrover looks neither English nor Indian to me. It looks very Korean. You guys seem horrified by it's appearance, sadly there are many cars that look like that, offered for sale in Australia. Fortunately, most of us won't buy one.

[davemorganfan]

Originally posted by bella
i would never buy a rover or an mg.

Why? Are you familiar with the latest models? Have you driven one recently?

[garcon]

Mind you, if you think today's line-up is bad, have a look at what Crayford did to some of the 1970s models...

http://www.austin-rover.co.uk/index.htm?crayindexf.htm

[429CJ]

Oh dear, if it should be a modified Mini, I'd choose the Mini ERA Turbo.

[touringcarnut]

Its a real shame, but I have to echo the view that MG Rover won't be around in three years time if they continue to make such dismal cars. The ZR, ZS and ZT are super cars, but also looking their age. Rover are always behind the rest with their shapes, the latest offerings look like something out of the 80s.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally posted by garcon
Mind you, if you think today's line-up is bad, have a look at what Crayford did to some of the 1970s models...

http://www.austin-rover.co.uk/index.htm?crayindexf.htm

OMG, how ugly are some of those abominations, eeeyew! Rover is a good name for a dog!

[Super Tourer]

Fascinating website!

Back in 1984 my Dad bought a new Range Rover Vouge, typically it had about 15 faults when they delivered it...ranging from a seized fuel cap to a dent in the door and missing wheel hub caps.

While they were fixing it, we were given a Morris Ital as a 'courtesy car'. My Dad asked me to put it away the first night we had it and I nearly drove through the end of the building, as it had virtually no brakes!

He wouldn't even drive it on the road!

[Logrence]

Wicked! A Metro convertible!

[ken clarke]

I think you are extremely hard on the SD1. Build quality may not have been to BMW standardsor even Ford. But if you want a stylish fast motorway cruiser it was excellent. In the 80's I travelled through Germany in a TWR modified road car for over 400 miles averaging over 120 mph & returning over 25mpg. Now the Vitesse is much more sort after as a classic car than it's Ford, BMW, Vauxhall etc contemporaries.

[garcon]

The Vitesse is sought after cos there's hardly any left!

The SD1 was one of my favourite cars in V8 guise, but that's mainly because I grew up in that era. I also quite liked the XJS then too.

There was a feature on the Rover V8 engine on Top Gear on Sunday. As they said, the best home for that glorious lump was the V8 SD1 (although some would probably argue for the Range Rover). The police loved 'em, and when they found out the SD1 was going out of production they stockpiled them.

I guess they weren't all that bad, but poor build quality and the absolutely dreadful 2300 and 2600 units were along way from what you'd hope for. However, one thing will always remain in the SD1's favour - it was superb compared to the Rover 800 that replaced it...

Fortunately for the police, a great car came along to replace the SD1 V8 that bettered it in every way (except its exhaust note)... the Vauxhall Senator 24v. I owned one, and for the combination of comfort, performance and reliability I have yet to find a car to improve on it. (Shame I wrote it off, really! )

[garcon]

Seeing as I did a grand impression of a hijacker in a thread about Korean cars, I thought I'd better resurrect a relevant one. Not to knock MG Rover, but to promote the debate - especially in the UK there is alot of feeling about this company, its past, its present and its future.

We all know MG Rover is not in the best of health, and inevitably struggles to compete in a market dominated by global giants. But what's the solution, and is it just cruel industry reality or are the current management culpable?

[Atomizer]

In my opinion the current MGR management are doing just fine considering what they're up against. For a start, a highly ignorant and prejudiced British public that will knock their efforts for no reason other than being the owners of a few brands that can be associated with a troubled era in British industry.

People never stop to consider that the reason that MGR is in the pickle they're in is that their home market deserted the product when the times were bad. Strangely enough, even whilst the French or Italian manufacturers were/are producing **** products their home market stuck/stick with them and as a result they've come through these times with enough money to pump into development work for new, better products. Sadly the British market wasn't quite as forgiving. Bizarrely enough, the new management team gets blamed for not reversing this legacy overnight. Even if they had unlimited resources to introduce a host of new product overnight, we all know that the British public would still cling to their prejudices and not buy the product.

As a result of this I suggest that the MGR/SAIC joint venture is a move in the right direction, albeit probably the last option they have. Undoubtedly, it will mean that they'll be able to reduce costs as clearly, over time, more and more of the componentry will come from China (and other lower cost markets) and eventually, like most other vehicle manufacturers have done, the assembly will also be done there. This may mean that the product is no longer made in the UK, but when was the last time a BMW/Mercedes Benz was built in Germany? OK that last comment isn't entirely true, but as we know, much of their production is now done in the third world. Hopefully, if the JV results in a large range of products at least some production might remain in the UK. Consider that if the chinese economy keeps growing at anything near the current rate, the market will dwarf MGR's current market, and even if they get to retain production of only one of the models in the UK (like the German manufacturers it will probably be the flagship model) they'll probably exceed their production target of 200 000 units, thereby keeping the trade unions happy. Of course, the option is to go belly up and make the unions unhappy.

The other benefit of the JV is that it will mean that they'll be able enter new, unprejudiced markets that will be more receptive to the virtues of the products they produce.

Many people have also commented on the folly of producing the SV at the expense of other products in the range, but if these detractors stopped to consider that this was a company bought out by a bunch of motor enthusiasts, they'd realise that it was nigh on impossible to resist the opportunity. Besides, the money had already been spent before the relationship with Tata came to the fore, and before the deals with other suitors/partners collapsed. I surmise that plans to spend on the existing products would have been kept on the backburner whilst these deals were in the pipeline. When these potential deals fell through, they were suddenly left exposed. In any event, hindsight is a wonderful thing and I'm sure there are many things MGR manegement would love to change, but let's face it, they've made a better job of it than anybody else, including the BMW asset strippers, and they've at least kept Longbridge going.

Im certainly crossing fingers and holding thumbs that the SAIC deal comes off!

[Super Tourer]

In Auto Express this week there is a pic of the planned replacement for the 45 - AE claim the photo was 'smuggled' out of Peter Steven's studio.

This smacks to me of MGR getting a pic out to show they are 'still in business' with great plans.

"most of the design work has been completed, the vehicle exists in principle and, with the right investement it could be put into production quickly" (12 months)

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ - look under the new section for Tuesday 15th Feb!

MGR desperately need a partner to develop, but I still fear that their traditional customer base has now gone - the influx of new brands has taken away their market to a certain extent. The market is so competitive, that you not only need the investment for new models but the on going resources to re-fresh the range every 12 to 18 months.

A friend of my worked for a consultancy that was contracted to MG Rover for dealer support - this involved visiting dealers to stir up promotions and drum up business in their area. From his experience, the dealers were totally disullisioned and down hearted about MGR, and were really struggling for sales.

On top of this, stuff like putting sheet metal into the back windows of the R25 and calling it a van were plain daft - anyone ever seen one on the road? - and just smacked of more desperation.

I couldn't see any merit in producing the high power sports car either, or shoe horning a V8 into a Rover 75 - you're not going to take sales away from BMW, Mercedes or Audi with a Rover 75 - so it's a pointless exercise.