M6 GTR : goodbye ?

[Fab]

According to Turbomagazine, the M6GTR project seems at least toasted, if there was any... Bart Mampaey (the team who won the ETCC with Andy Priaulx) stated that there wasn't, and that BMW seems not interrested by GT

Your news ?

Your thoughts ?

[Asa]

Seriously hope that it is not true...

I remember Autosport has said that BMW has to develop the E90 for WTCC 2006 first, with the M6 to be developed for 2007. I think and hope that BMW just hasn't started work on the M6 yet.

[tamar]

Hello Fab
Read the same article and my conclusion is quite the opposite

The way I see it...this is an interview with mr Mampaey who presents himself as a very relieved (touringcar) team owner who is optimistic about the near future, which is a bit odd considering that he:

Just got his arse kicked at the first round in Monza...
Knows he's in for a hard time trying to beat the opposition with a year old car.
Knows there will be only minor developments down the pipepline.

So why is he optimistic? Is it because he's just been reassured by BMW that they:

Will continue in the WTCC, at least for 2006......
Will do so with the new e90 to make sure he won't get his arse kicked 2 years in a row...
Will not be needing the services of his top driver for at least another year.

If indeed these are the reaons for his optimism, he must have had serious concerns that the opposite was about to happen.Now why would that be ?

Maybe because he wondered like many of us why BMW chose not pull out all the stops to get the e90 ready for this year? Specialy with the prospect of a World Title at stake?

And if as BMW kept telling him, this was not a matter of choice, and the Motorsport department was oh so busy at the moment, what were these other projects that kept them from finishing the e90 in time?
Could it be that the rumours about a M6 GTR program and a subsequent switch to FIA GT were true? If so Andy Priaulx would have been a logical choice as one of the "development" drivers.

For mr Mampaey this would have been a nightmare scenario indeed!
But luckily for him BMW managed to reassure him it was all a big bad dream..which leads Mr Mampaey to the conclusion...There is no GT project!

Which is one of the interesting things about his interview...all the arguments he presents to support his conclusion are credible.. with one key exception.

"N'oublions pas que la Série 3 reste le cheval de bataille de la marque, et que son exploitation via le sport est considéré comme une priorité. Ce qui n'est pas le cas de la M6, qui est un modèle assez marginal"

Which (if you excuse my free French translation) means something like
"Let us not forget that the 3 Series has alsways been the front guard of the (BMW) brand, and that its exploitation via the sport (keeping a high profile) is regarded as a priority. What is not the case of the M6, which is a rather marginal model"

While the first part is totaly true, the last part is a bit off the mark to say the least.I mean BMW has just spent zillions of euro's on the M6 and have launched it as its top of the line model. Would you call a model designed to surpass Grand Tourers like the Ferrari 550/575 or the Aston Martin DBR9 "marginal"?

What the M6 lacks in high volume compared to the 3 series, it makes up with its high profile. Creating a GTR version to (im)prove that profile in direct competition with its main opponents would make perfectly sence in both sportive and business sense.

The last clue to solve this mystery is presented by Mr Mampaey himself as he concludes. "anyhow, nobody at BMW motorsport has ever expressed the desire to drop Touringcars in favor of a GT program"

Which is true because..they wouldn't have to!

I see the facts this way
BMW motorsport is working at full steam on several projects, amongst one of them is the development of the new e90 3 series for a new world championship. Having won the 2004 title they decide to continue with the old e46 and postpone the homologation of the new car by a year!

If racing the 3 series is such a high priority model for BMW it would have made sense to do so with the latest model. Considering the resources of BMW they should have been more than able to do so.
The fact that they didn't means there's a project with even higher priority!
One that they need all their resources for to get it up and running right now!

"Le projet Grand Tourisme n'existe pas"

I dont think so, if there's one thing I've learned from BMW it's that the more the start to deny to comment on a project the sooner it is before the car hits the track. (remember the V8 M3 GTR)

I expect a M6 GTR to be presented to the press within 4 months and to see BMW enter both world championships in 2006


With kind regards
Tamar

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by tamar

The way I see it...this is an interview with mr Mampaey who presents himself as a very relieved (touringcar) team owner who is optimistic about the near future, which is a bit odd considering that he:

Just got his arse kicked at the first round in Monza...
Knows he's in for a hard time trying to beat the opposition with a year old car.
Knows there will be only minor developments down the pipepline.

Don't understand what you mean.
They were beaten during pre-season testing at Monza (Alfa's homeground). The real thing (championship) starts next weekend, you don't win a championshhip in pre-season testing.
RBM will enter 1 factory car for Priaulx which has the same specs as the cars of the Muller boys. So the car is brand new.

[Fab]

Originally Posted by tamar

Hello Fab
Read the same article and my conclusion is quite the opposite ..........I expect a M6 GTR to be presented to the press within 4 months and to see BMW enter both world championships in 2006

A very documented answer, thanks for that Tamar !

[Foster]

You never know, the GT project may be a good move for RBM.
BMW pulls Schnitzer torun the GT car, well RBM runs the factory TC.

Could be a good move for Mr.Mampeay.

[tamar]

Originally Posted by Foster

You never know, the GT project may be a good move for RBM.
BMW pulls Schnitzer torun the GT car, well RBM runs the factory TC.

Could be a good move for Mr.Mampeay.

My thoughts exactly, he did mention a " l'ambition de réaliser de nouveaux exploits"

And a well informed source told me about an unusual amount of v10 engines moving up and down between Schnitzer and BMW Motorsport in the last couple of months

[tamar]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Don't understand what you mean.
They were beaten during pre-season testing at Monza (Alfa's homeground). The real thing (championship) starts next weekend, you don't win a championshhip in pre-season testing.
RBM will enter 1 factory car for Priaulx which has the same specs as the cars of the Muller boys. So the car is brand new.

Hello Fire
Look I have no doubt that they will get the same spec car as the Muller boys, but the e46 is far from new. Its a great car, didn't win the EC Title for nothing, but it has reached the end of its development cycle.
But that was not the point of the post.

Point was that a title winning team and probably Muller as well is told by BMW that the new car will not be ready for 2006.
To me that indidcates that Motorsport is very occupied on something else.
Its not Rally, not F1, nor an LMP

[Francesco]

not in F1? who builds the engines for williams?

[JAG]

Maybe with all of the recent announcments and behind the scenes goings on BMW, if they intend to enter sportscars at all, have deceided to go down the LMP route, maybe even just supply engines.

After all their major competiters, Porsche and Audi, will be in LMP1 sooner rather than later.

Why would BMW want to race the M6 which is a niche model, particulalry if it was at the expense on the 3 series touringc car program

[tamar]

Hello Francesco, hello Jag

Nope, I'm stil betting on a GT program

With no F1 I meant: F1 is an ongoing program, running side by side with the tourers for some time now. And even though the development of the 2 race F1 engines will have taken up some extra shop time, the total work load should not influence either program.

And I explained why BMW would want to race a niche model, as it wants to re carve itself a reputation in a niche market. And it wouldn't have to be at the expense of the touring program.

The position of Porsche on a Prototype is unclear, pundits have announced their return for years, but it wouldn't make sense from a bussiness marketing point.

Besides its not only BMW that would benefit from a M6 GTR racing.
Its also the powers that be that would like to see such a car appear.
Their ever moving pendulum has swung back to GT's, so at the present they like to see their manufacturers there rather than in the prototype class.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by tamar

Their ever moving pendulum has swung back to GT's, so at the present they like to see their manufacturers there rather than in the prototype class.

I would suggest it 'had' swung in favour of GT's a a couple of years back, but is firmly swinging the other way now, or even better still both are now moving forward.

The Maserati and Aston programs were initiated over 2 years ago, its not simply happened overnight.

[Bramzel]

Why should it be an if? Why can't they do more things at the same time? If i'm not mistaken business went very well for BMW last year. Look at Chevrolet, factory-active in GT and Touringcars. Look at Porsche, factory-active in LMP's, GT's and cupcars. Look at Audi, factory active in LMP and DTM. Look at Mercedes, factory active in F1 and DTM. Look at Ferrari, developing all kinds of racecars next to eachother, F1, GT1, GT2, etc. These factories have got the funding and the ability to run extensive motorsport programs. For a brand like BMW it's important to keep close ties to the motorsport series. So I wouldn't be surprised if we would see a Sauber/Williams/whatever-BMW, a E90 3-series WTCC and a M6 GTR in 2006 / 2007. Yeah, all 3 next to eachother.

[tamar]

Originally Posted by JAG

I would suggest it 'had' swung in favour of GT's a a couple of years back, but is firmly swinging the other way now, or even better still both are now moving forward.

The Maserati and Aston programs were initiated over 2 years ago, its not simply happened overnight.

I agree, for the rising interest of conctructors for GT's initiated 2-3 years ago.
These developments seem to happen in recurring cycles.
The pace of these cyles seems to increase.
This time it took the FIA just 2 years before they stepped in ...firmly
Which, if history is about to repeat itself, means that the current GT's have about 2 or 3 years before their demise sets in?

[Fogelhund]

It is my expectations that BMW will be involved in GT racing in some manner, at least in North American in the ALMS. It seems more likely to be the upcoming V8 M3 though here, don't know about Europe.

[TheNewBob]

"The Maserati and Aston programs were initiated over 2 years ago, its not simply happened overnight."

Cars such as the Maserati MC12 were created purely for racing. They took to the drawing board for the car when they decided GT1 (or GTS, at that time) was moving upwards. The BMW M6 has been in development for a long time, indeed the whole 6 series range.

Surely BMW would have created the M6 with a part of their minds looking at what the rest of the high profile car market was doing with their racing cars. Ferrari were putting the 575 into racing, Maserati developing the MC12, Aston with the DBR9 and Corvette with the C6, all at a similar time the M6 was in development.

Put simply it's been created at similar kind of times. BMW in Germany would have been running early M6 models in disguise around Bavaria 2 years ago. That's enough time for the motorsports divison to start working on something on the side while they focus on F1 and ETCC/WTCC too.

So if the project is still on, I reckon it won't be too long before they unveil it.

[JAG]

My point was Maserati certainly, and possibly even Aston judging by the comments of Richards etc, developed their cas with an eye on the overall Le Mans win.

With the prototype revival its now clear a GT1 will not/can't win overall, so are BMW still willing to fund a car just for class wins.

They may as well spend less and build a new M3 GTR V8 GT2 to promote their core product and compete with Porsche, and/or an LMP1 program to compete for overall wins.

[TheNewBob]

A hard choice, considering the manufacturers seem to be drawn to GT1 as well, with the likes of Koenigsegg trying to put a car in some time. Mind you, saying that, all the new manufacturer involvement apart from them and BMW seems to have already entered...

Which leads me to think that BMW being German, they'd probably prefer to go against German opposition. There's Porsche and Audi as likely opposition in LMP1, but then again Autosport did report a while ago that Mercedes are eyeing up GT1...

[tamar]

Originally Posted by JAG

My point was Maserati certainly, and possibly even Aston judging by the comments of Richards etc, developed their cas with an eye on the overall Le Mans win.

With the prototype revival its now clear a GT1 will not/can't win overall, so are BMW still willing to fund a car just for class wins.

Even under the most liberal the GT(S) rules I don't see a how such a car could go for overall victory at Le Mans on its own merit.
Prototypes are a full 15 sec a lap faster.

The ACO has always maintained that it considers the Prototype category as the only class that should be capable of an outright win.
Heck they wouldn't let a LMP 675 win so a GT1(S) would be out of the question.

And for this year they even announced it in advance. Any GT1(S) that goes below the 3.50 will be penalised/handicapped for the next (LEMS) event.

[JAG]

When the MC12 project began they still had an eye on the LMP classes being scrapped, or at least the GTS/1 cars being put on an equal footing.

Of course this didn't, and will never happen.

[TheNewBob]

Thank goodness it won't happen! They may not be found in many championships, but Le Mans without prototypes just wouldn't be the same... It would just be like any normal championship GT race.

[kdr]

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

Thank goodness it won't happen! They may not be found in many championships, but Le Mans without prototypes just wouldn't be the same... It would just be like any normal championship GT race.

i share the same view. i like the gts, and i understand why others may prefer them, plus i can see their appeal to the "race on sunday, sell on monday" objectives of some factories. but prototypes, well to me they're pure racers and sexy as hell in the flesh...and looked on with awe and envy by most other classes of motorsport, including f1.

as for saying goodbye to the bmw m6 gtr....well it would have been nice to say hello to it in the first place. sad that a company that sent out the bmw lmr racing...all its given us since then is a jumped up touring car. imho.

[TheNewBob]

A very uninspiring touring car at that. Still, it got the job done with Priaulx, I guess. But it's no match for a GT effort.

If GT's and prototypes were to be seperated, it would remove all that's attractive about sportscar racing - lots of different types and speeds of cars all racing together. Where else do you find such variety, and value for money at that? (I say value for money having just come back from Donington spending just £18 entry fee, admittedly only for British GT, whilst an F1 ticket might as well be ten times more than that for much less racing and many many times less entertainment...)

[BSchneiderFan]

Of course, I recall BMW's last involvement in GT1, with the beautiful Schnitzer McLaren F1s. Don't suppose it could be homologated now..?

(OT, I realise, but I saw a McLaren F1 in the metal for the first time ever on Monday, at an exhibition of Ralph Lauren's cars in Boston, and it was stunning.)