EVs on Hillclimbs

[coppice]

I was amazed to read on the Harewood website that they (in common with most speed event sites) will not accept EV entries any more because they can't comply with MSUK requirements for dealing with them.

I do not know the rights and wrongs , who said what to whom , when and why but what a(nother) spectacular own goal for motor sport . Like them or not (and I have no issue with normal road cars being EVs) , EVs are now mainstream . I have even seen a few on sprints etc . But now they're barred ...

An even bigger own goal than banning spectators from windy hilltops when most venues were open to the public.

Can anyone shed any light on this utter nonsense ?

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by coppice

I do not know the rights and wrongs , who said what to whom , when and why but what a(nother) spectacular own goal for motor sport . Like them or not (and I have no issue with normal road cars being EVs) , EVs are now mainstream . I have even seen a few on sprints etc . But now they're barred ...

...

Can anyone shed any light on this utter nonsense ?

You don't know the reasons for the decision, but you've already decided it's an utter nonsense, so it's not clear what you think there is to discuss tbh.

[Anyopenroad]

Since I was interested myself I did what you might have done yourself and Googled. A single quick search took me to https://www.motorsportuk.org/wp-cont...icles-V4.0.pdf

One glance at the scrutineering and marshal training required and the rules on dealing with an incident involving an EV makes it perfectly obvious why a club-run Hillclimb dependent on and run by volunteers wouldn't want one anywhere other than in the spectator car park.

[coppice]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

You don't know the reasons for the decision, but you've already decided it's an utter nonsense, so it's not clear what you think there is to discuss tbh.

It is nonsense because it is an own goal . It is immaterial if MSUK and/ or an organising club is 'at fault' . If the outcome is that a type of vehicle set to be the default form of transport , and already driven by thousands , can't be driven up a hillclimb it is a PR disaster. I have seen the advice , thanks, but am not in a position to judge whether it's OTT or not . EVs have already competed in motorsport for decades - they even have their own FIA championship of course - and it's an absurdity if MSUK and clubs can't agree a workable protocol . What message does that send out to the younger and casual spectators ?

[Anyopenroad]

Since a quick Google search on the topic throws up only the Harewood website statement, a Facebook page and this forum, you seem to be setting a very low bar for “PR disaster”.

Breathless hyperbole aside, what do you suggest? Crashed EVs are dangerous, hence the elaborate protocols. MSUK have to issue guidance that reflects the danger. Small volunteer-run clubs, unlike F1 and WEC, are not able to fulfil those requirements. I am sure they would like to welcome EVs, but I fully understand why the MSUK protocols are deemed prohibitive.

It’s took over 100 years to get to the current level of fire safety and a major part of that was improvements in car design to largely prevent hot things and fuel coming into contact. EVs are a very young technology so no doubt equivalent improvements in safety will come. But not, it seems, quite yet.

[dwh43scale]

The vast majority of cars on the road bear no resemblance to most hillclimb cars. I don't go to see road going cars compete - even the GR Yaris is frankly quiet and boring to watch (although I am sure it is different behind the wheel). If the field was significantly comprised of EVs, I'd be elsewhere. If that makes me out of touch and a dinosaur, then so be it.

PS - I did see the Jaguar Formula E car go up Shelsley - "Scalextric on speed". I understand that formal competition had to be suspended for the period of its run up the hill. There was talk of needing thousands of gallons of water available otherwise.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by dwh43scale

The vast majority of cars on the road bear no resemblance to most hillclimb cars. I don't go to see road going cars compete - even the GR Yaris is frankly quiet and boring to watch (although I am sure it is different behind the wheel). If the field was significantly comprised of EVs, I'd be elsewhere. If that makes me out of touch and a dinosaur, then so be it.

PS - I did see the Jaguar Formula E car go up Shelsley - "Scalextric on speed". I understand that formal competition had to be suspended for the period of its run up the hill. There was talk of needing thousands of gallons of water available otherwise.

I did read up that the requirement for 1 car , in case it catches fire , is a fire fighting truck with 12,000 litres of water .

[NaBUru38]

The Dakar Rally has a subclass for support trucks. So how about adding fire trucks as a support class?

[coppice]

A few points to reply to the above -

-The Harewood site refers states BARC's position re EVs as being in common with 'almost all speed event organisers' .

- EVs are now common on our roads . The emergency services and breakdown services like the RAC are presumably comfortable in dealing with them . It's reasonable to assume that some knowledge transfer could occur to enable clubs to deal with them

- I have seen several EVs compete already, the first well over a decade ago . If they were really so dangerous I wonder why that was , or indeed why I can drive one past a school , to Tescos or in traffic .


- Motorsport will come under ever tighter scrutiny in the future, and if it can be seen to accommodate new technology as well as old that can only be to the good .That is why I think this issue is important . Sending out a message that EVs aren't welcome smacks of a sport resistant to change , and totally out of step with the fact that EVs are becoming the default mode of transport . Like most people of my age , I'd rather hear (say) a DFV or a Chevy smallblock to a Tesla whine , but that is not the point.

[crmalcolm]

On the comparison between road and race incidents with EVs. Having been involved with the planning for dealing with EV fires, the approach from a lot of fire services is to make an area safe, then let the EV fire burn itself out. This typically means a cordon, and potential road closure for a period of hours.

If at a race venue and the same approach applied, we are accepting that one EV fire means that competition ends for the day.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by coppice

- EVs are now common on our roads . The emergency services and breakdown services like the RAC are presumably comfortable in dealing with them . It's reasonable to assume that some knowledge transfer could occur to enable clubs to deal with them

Professional or public services with obligations and/or commercial benefit from training their employees. Compared to volunteer-run club events dependent on volunteer marshals. Who do you think should pay for the additional training? For the additional equipment? The RAC can put up their prices, the NHS takes your taxes. Maybe hillclimbs should charge entrants more? Marshals? Spectators? You?

Originally Posted by coppice

- I have seen several EVs compete already, the first well over a decade ago . If they were really so dangerous I wonder why that was , or indeed why I can drive one past a school , to Tescos or in traffic .

You know perfectly well what the answer is to that. Driving to Tesco is, on balance, rather less likely to result in a heavy impact with a barrier than hammering up a narrow and twisty hillclimb course. Which is why your insurance will cover you for the former not the latter. And why crash testing assumes the sort of shunt typical of suburban roads rather than, say, the Esses at Prescott.

Originally Posted by coppice

- Motorsport will come under ever tighter scrutiny in the future, and if it can be seen to accommodate new technology as well as old that can only be to the good .That is why I think this issue is important . Sending out a message that EVs aren't welcome smacks of a sport resistant to change , and totally out of step with the fact that EVs are becoming the default mode of transport .

Becoming the default way to get to a circuit does not mean EVs have to become the default way to get round the circuit.

And let's get a sense of proportion here: we're talking about a handful of enthusiast-only, niche club events run by volunteers. EVs in one form or another are now a part of F1, WEC, WRC, WRX and BTCC. You make it sound like the decision of a few hillclimbs equates to motorsport as a whole sticking two fingers up at the future. It doesn't.

[Woolley]

Of course, training is an issue at the moment, uncertainty about gatherings and working in close groups has meant that we haven't undergone face to face co-ordinated training for almost two years with doubts beginning to arise around this year.

As Rescue crew, we would require specialist training in how to safely neutralise and work on a variety of vehicles, even before it inevitably moves to self-built competition cars. That's not currently available to us.

It will come at amateur level, I'm sure, but not yet. BTCC is only just moving to hybrids and they have dedicated safety teams. That will start to give some indication of how it might develop once they have more experience of real life application.

That said, Shelsley ran an EV class last year, but run under very strict conditions which are probably not practical in the bigger meetings.

[Truckosaurus]

I was going to say I'd seen a couple of EVs running at Shelsley last summer.

I was interested to note they were constantly plugged into the mains in the paddock between runs and the Telsa (Model 3 ?) had a very loud internal cooling fan running that I've not noticed from other charging EVs in car parks, so even a 30-second run up SW must have got it hot'n'bothered.

I suspect speed events might be the first of the amateur level competitions to allow hybrids and/or EVs due to lower speeds and lack of car-to-car incidents.

Also, venues without return roads will allow for some re-gen braking on the downhill runs back to the paddock

[Anyopenroad]

My neighbour has a Tesla which is regularly plugged in to a charger on a streetlamp right by my bedroom window. The noise from the cooling fans is very noticeable for some time after the car is first plugged in.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

My neighbour has a Tesla which is regularly plugged in to a charger on a streetlamp right by my bedroom window. The noise from the cooling fans is very noticeable for some time after the car is first plugged in.

Cooling fans or warming fans to assist the rate of charge?

It seems both are required, though usually at different times.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by grantp

It seems both are required, though usually at different times.

I didn’t know that! I assumed cooling as the whirring noise is there for a while after the car is first plugged in, but not (eg) the next morning.

[SnoodyMcFlude]

Originally Posted by coppice

Can anyone shed any light on this utter nonsense ?

Have you read the Blue Book requirements for EVs? It's a bloody minefield and makes life extremely difficult, so much easier for organisers to exclude them completely.

Dunno if Shelsley were running them properly or as demo runs, I know that in the South West most events have been excluding them since the MSA (as it was) asked for something like 10,000 gallons of water on site. Think regs have been relaxed since then but still far too much when clubs are hovering around break even on some events.

Of course I'm sure most clubs would be open to the dialogue if someone came to them and was willing to do a lot of the hard work involved in getting an EV class running, perhaps you could offer your services?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Truckosaurus

I suspect speed events might be the first of the amateur level competitions to allow hybrids and/or EVs due to lower speeds and lack of car-to-car incidents.

There was a class for Fiat 500e cars in British Rallycross last year so there has been some wheel to wheel EV racing a amateur level. I'm not sure whether they did anything differently in regard to the safety aspect of the events though?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by SnoodyMcFlude

Dunno if Shelsley were running them properly or as demo runs

It was a proper timed class, but not part of any championship.