Brabham BT23

[Bryan Miller]

I have been to Goulburn , and returned with another Brabham.F2-8-65 , BT23B-1 according to David McKinney.Strange numbers on LHS. rear of frame.

[David Irwin]

To my knowledge BT23 were not built by Arch Motors, they were built by Racing Fabrications, thus the stamped number in the frame begins with 'RF'.

[allenbrown]

Is this the right place to ask about BT23C-11? Steve Mills has been in touch with me asking what became of her. He was with Cullen when the car was doing F2 events in 1970. For some reason, he can still rememebr the chassis number.

Anyone know?

Allen

[David McKinney]

I have the 1990 owner as Mark Raymond (or Rayment) on this side of the Irish Sea

[Chris Townsend]

In January 1982 Autosport we have for sale by Northdown Racing of Ripley, Surrey, BT23C-2 [the ex Gethin/Don Godden car last seen for sale by Low Cost Racing in A/S in March 1973, and BT23-1, last seen being raced in Ireland by Maurice Stirling in 1973.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
and BT23-1, last seen being raced in Ireland by Maurice Stirling in 1973.

Chris

I bought BT23-1 from Jon Bradburn in late 84. He drove it a couple of times in HSCC events painted white, a colour he liked. Bradburn & Wedge were on the brink of collapse thanks to a massive loan from the bank to expand their business. -a time when the banks were throwing the stuff around. I see he has quite a few cars for sale these days!

[Chris Townsend]

Looking forward to the BT23s. I know that 23-8 [built with an Alfa engine for Galli] was still extant in Italy a year or two back.

Chris

[Andrew Fellowes]

OK, so who is going to start the BT23's? I know zilch apart from owning BT23-1 in 1985, ex Sir Jack, Tommy Reid and still in the UK, -?

[Chris Townsend]

ok Andrew, Bryan et al, shoot holes, add things to this!

BT23

1: Works car 1967 for Brabham. Sold to Tommy Reid and retained to 1970. Then Walter Kinnear. To Nelson Todd 1971. Maurice Stirling 1973.

2: Works car 1967 for Hulme and Gardner.1969 Picchio Rosso for Enzo Corti. 1970 Vittorio Brambilla

3: Works car 1967 for Gardner. 1968: Xavier Perrot. Destroyed in accident at Nurburgring? !969 by Perrot

4: Winkelmann 1967 for Rees. 1968 Walter Habbeger. 1969 Bruno Frey [this number sometimes ascribed to Corti's car which was given the wrong plate at a rebuild]

5: Winkelmann 1967 for Rindt and van Lennep. Taken by Hulme to 1968 Tasman and written off.

6: Witley Racing Syndicate 1967 for Robin Widdows. this car or chassis 9 to Canada 1968 for Dave Webster.

7: Mitter, 1967. to Norbert Linderman 1968, then Helmut Gall 1970, destroyed in accident

8: Nanni Galli 1967 with Alfa engine. 1968 Giorgio Pianta. 1969: Etienne Vigoureux as F3 car.

9: David Bridges for Brian Redman. This car or 6 to Canada in 1968.

23C

1: Works car 1967 for Brabham/Gardner. 1968: Frank Williams for Piko Troberg/Harry Stiller [as F3]/Piers Courage/Laurence Brownlie. 1969: Williams - Graham McRae/Alistair Walker. 1970: Walter Kinnear [described as ex Courage/Walker]

2: Lythgoe: Gethin 1968. 1969 Whitmore for Don Godden. For sale by Low Cost Racing 1.3.73.

3 Not known

4: Chris Lambert. ?Destroyed in Lambert's accident at Zandvoort 68

5: Winkelmann 1968 for Rindt. 1969: Ec. Ecosse: Graham Birrell
1973: Joe Applegarth

6: Max Moseley 1968. 1969: Peter Parnell [ZA]; 1970: Arnold Charlton

7: Williams 1968 for Courage. 1969: Roly Levis

8: 1968: Kurt Ahrens. 1969-70 Bernd Terbeck. 1977. Bill Morris

9: 1968: Church Farm Racing for Bell, 1968-9 Laurence Brownlie

10: 1968: Malcolm Payne. 1969 Garth McGilliwie [ZA] 1970 Tony Dean
1971: Rod Pickering. 1972: Bob Howlings. 1973: Bob Snelson

11: Winkelmann 1968 for Rees and Mitter. 1969: Bill Ivy, then to Brian Cullen after Ivy's bike crash. Kept by Cullen until end 71

12: Williams 1968 for Manfredini. 1969: Williams for Guthrie then sold to Bob Gerard for Widdows/Hart. 1970: Gerry Tyzack. 1971: Maybe Robin Darlington

13 Not built

14: Williams for Carlos Piaretti in Temporada

15: Eduardo Copello in Temporada

16: Williams for Juan Manuel Bordeu in Temporada. 1969: Williams for Courage and Ickx, then sold to Alistair Walker. 1970: Walker then sold to Gagliardi. 1971: Perhaps the Marcello Gallo BT23C running as F3 in 1971

17: Jorge Cuperio in Temporada. 1969: Perrot replacing w/o 23. 1970 Baron Robertson and 1971 then Kelvin Cameron . Have my doubts about the NZ thing

Chris

[allenbrown]

I think the Baron Roberston/Kelvin Cameron BT23C was misread. Pretty sure it was BT23C/7, not 17.

Allen

[David McKinney]

I'll go through this when I get home
In the meantime:
Baron Robertson's first BT23C was #7, ex-Levis. This was badly damaged and Robertson imported a replacement car, which had a plate identifying it as #17 (though whether it was the ex-Cupeiro 17 I wouldn't like to say....) This was the car which passed on to Kelvin Cameron etc
The original car (7) was meanwhile straightened out by Robertson's mechanic, Phil Harris, and adapted for FF1600.
Both cars raced in NZ at the same time
I think this is the same Phil Harris who still races Brabhams in North American historics (or did a few years ago)

[David McKinney]

BT23
•Hulme, as you say, started the Tasman series with #5, which was written off at Pukekohe. His replacement car was No.4, and was described at the time as his 1967 works mount, which had been sold to an unnamed American (though listed by F1R and you as #2). The question is, did Scuderia Picchio-Rossi get the ex-Tasman car for Corti, or was the #2 they got (and called 4) another car?
The unnamed American got a car (number unknown) which had been shipped to Mike Champion in Australia
•I have the Mitter/Werner Lindermann etc car as 9 (though F1R says 7). I don’t have anyone for 7, but nor do I have a number for the Bridges/Redman car)

BT23C
•I have Howlings racing #1 in 1970. I wonder if the Kinnear reference (by others as well as you) is to BT23-1, not BT23C-1?
•I have #4 with Corti in 1969 (a possible confusion with BT23/4 - or BT23/2!)
•I have the South African cars the other way around (6 with McGillwie 1969, then Arnold Charlton, and 10 with Parnell then returning to the UK)
•7 came back to the UK in the late 1980s. The NZ 17 (whatever it really was) was destroyed by fire about 1978
•Brownlie certainly never had BT23C/9 (except perhaps on paper)
•I have Tyack using #12 in hillclimbs in 1971 as well as 1970

[Bryan Miller]

I will have to have a few goes at this.

BT23's 1st.

BT23-1 , M.R.D. RF5 , FVA 7021, Jack Brabham 1967.
1968 , Irish Racing Cars , Tommy Reid with a Ford Twin -cam.
1969, as above Tommy Reid.
1970, as above , but now with FVA.

BT23-2,RF6, FVA 7012, M.R.D. Hulme , then apparently to Walter Habegger , but then borrowed/rented back by Hulme to finish the Tasman with after his big accident in BT23-5 in early 1968, thence back to Europe to Scuderia Piicchio Rosso [ Enzo Corti ] carries chassis number 23-4 scratched on chassis .
1969 Enzo Corti .
1970 Vittorio Brambilla.

BT23-3, M.R.D. RF8 FVA 7003 , Gardner 1967.
1968 , Xavier Perrot.
1969, Perrot written off in non F2 race.

BT23-4, Winkleman/Rees FVA 7008 .
1968 Walter Habegger Racing.
1969, Bruno Frey.

BT23-5, Winkleman / Rindt, 1967
1968 , Hulme in Tasman untill serious accident, then rented / borrowed BT23-2,
Damaged BT23-5 sold to Feo Stanton in N.Z. and sent to Bob Brittan / Rennmax in Australia for rebuild, typically Bob made a jig [ subsequently used for Mildren / Rennmax BN3 / etc. cars and sent a new car known as the Rorstan Porsche bach to N.Z. containing all the usable BT23-5 bits , this car used by Brian Fallon until his Fatal accident .
Meanwhile back in OZ , Bob Rebuilt the original frame as a project for Warren Leach as a Formula Ford , using Rennmax uprights etc, the car was repossed by Bob Brittan for , I believe non payment , and the car then sold to Graham Hepburn of Talbingo N.S.W. it then ended up with Denis Lupton of Melbourne circa 1981.
Meanwhile back in N.Z. the Falloon car with its apparently rare 4 cam eng still remaining somehow found its way to Melbourne Porsche Distributor Alan Hamilton who had acquired the car for the eng.and gearbox for a restoration .
The remains , i.e. rolling chassis then went to Les Sargent , then to Denis Lupton , who now had both collections of bits , a chinese deal evolved [ these dealings famous in OZ ] and George Goodare of Sydney swapped a BT15 to Lupton for the collection of BT23-5 in December 1983, where upon a major rebuild commenced and the car is still in the hands of George Goodare, after having compainged the car for many years complete with correct FVA / FT200 etc, and having recast new uprights etc. The car has not been used for some time now.

BT23-6 , Robbin Widdows .1967 , end 67 sold to Mitsubishi Motors .
I see a car advising this chassis number for sale in the U.S.A now.


Bryan.

[Bryan Miller]

Part 2 .

Further to above on BT23-6 FVA 7027.
Prob. purchased by Mitsubishi , to produce the Colt F2 cars and eng. for S.E.Asia .

BT23-7, 1967 Gerhard Mitter , with a note carrying Chassis plate BT23-9.
1968 Werner Linderman.
1969, Linderman / Montan Racing.
1970, Montan Racing, Helmut Galli.

BT23-8, Nanni Galli , Alfa Romeo .
1968, Giorgio Pianta , F2 4 Valve t/c GTA eng.
end of 1968 to Albert Poon at Macao.

BT23-9, David Bridges [ Brian Redman ] Frank Williams as F3 [ Harry Stiller ] carrying ch.pl. BT23-8.
By 1969 Etienne Vigoreux as an F3.

BT23C-1,

M.R.D. Brabham/ Gardner, 1967 August.
1968 March Frank Williams Racing ,Troberg/Courage/Brownlie/McRae.
1969, Paul Watson Racing , McRae.
Advertised by Bob Howlings Motor Sport May 1970 / p.516.
Sold to Rodney Seow , Singapore, 850.00 U.K. pounds less eng. and gearbox.
Sold to Mike Truter , Singapore 1980.
Sold To Brian Wilson Australia , Jan 1983.

This car and BT23-5 both rebuilt by George Goodare in Sydney.

Brian Wilson retains car to this day , and uses it all the time in historic, and despite having BT5 SC-2-63 and BT24-1 , this car is his favourite.

So that looks like BT23C-1 was a mistake for Walter Kinnear , and was his usual BT23-1.

More later. Bryan.

[Bryan Miller]

The memory chip just spluttered into life, and remembered that initially the Rorstan Porsche was Climax 2.5 / 2.7 FPF powered, prior to the Porsche instalation.
fiss-whir- splutter-=*^%$_+__---

[David McKinney]

Bryan
I'm rushing of to Monaco so will have a look at your BT23/23C list in more detail when I get back
However, the belief in NZ at the time was that the Rorstan-Porsche (later renamed Stanton-Porsche) used a different Bob Brittan frame from the earlier (BT23-based) Rorstan-Climax
Any comment?

[Bryan Miller]

David, some people do it hard don't they, off to Monaco. Huh.

Possibly because it was first fitted with the Climax is the only reason I can think of, I can see a telephone calling coming up to Britto.

Regards Bryan.

[Neptune]

"Both cars raced in NZ at the same time
I think this is the same Phil Harris who still races Brabhams in North American historics (or did a few years ago) "

Pretty sure this is same Phil Harris and he goes quite quickly in just about anything he drives. And to boot, he has run a BT23 FVA/C for years. When I think of Phil, I think of him in that blue Brabham. I'll try to get the number off it and any history.

Roger

[Bryan Miller]

Roger,

Yes it is the same Phil Harris, owner/principal at Truesports in your state .
Phil and Gary Simkin [ who does my some of my Hewland rebuilds ]used to be with VDS Racing in the Tasman and U.S series with Warwick Brown, Teddy Pilette Geoff Brabham etc.

Phil found and restored BT23C-16 , and I think still has it , the body panels were supplied by George Goodare from over here.
Phil also rebuilt a 2nd. BT23C, BT23C-7 for Bobby Rahal, which he still has as far as I know.

Bryan.

[Andrew Fellowes]

I am told BT23C-7 was sold last year after a mega rebuild for Rahal. In Frank Williams colours it was quite superb and a lot of car for a reputed $80,000 US.

[Neptune]

Bryan,

Yes and the same Phil Harris responsible for introducing the two of us. I was certain it was same person, I just didn't phrase it that way and I didn't know how this list would take mentioning his business. Phil also has at least one March now, a 78 FA I believe.

I also know of the tie in with Gary Simkin at VDS. I have an old magazine article (I think SCCA "Sports Car") of them and a much younger looking Steve and Christeen Horn who were also at VDS. Phil must have come to Columbus w/ the Horns to be at Truesports, back when Jim was still alive and Rahal was just the driver.

I also know the fellow who tends Rahal's toy car collection and I can make sure 23C-7 is truely gone.

Roger

[Pierre]

it is very interesting you mentioned PHIL HARRIS& GARY SIMKIN [ex VDS] . There was another AUSSIE, BOB MILLS, whom worked for VDS[ midland TEXAS] under FRANS WEISS& JIM HALL, he having worked here for the late GARY COOPER[ ELFIN SPORTS CARS] with BOB still in the US having married an american lass. regards PIERRE.

[Chris Townsend]

If anyone does get in touch with Phil Harris please could they remember to ask about that March 78B!!

Bryan

Just to say that the only time I use an F1R chassis number these days is if it's confirmed by contemporary periodical report. All of my records here are derived from MN and AS first.

23C-1. I think this car was raced as F3 by Stiller. Several reports describe it as ex Troberg/Stiller when McRae uses it. Given your comment on 23-9 [carrying the plate from 8 just to confuse matters!] did Stiller [or Williams for him] actually use more than one 23 or 23C as F3. My reason for asking comes from the 1969 F3 season.
Claudio Francisci in Italy is meant to get a very early BT28 but because of the delay at Brabhams he uses what is described as a BT21. BUT... I just came across a report that said it was a Williams supplied ex F2 chassis - so some kind of BT23 since it can't be either of the ex Lambert cars. Nor can it be the Vigoureux BT23, since he's using that at the same time.

Kinnear has two cars I think - though accept 23C-1 is problematic. He sells one in 1971 but keeps the other, and it is described as 'ex Walker and Courage' which is clearly not 23-1, but could, I suppose be 16, which was also used by both.

On the basis of the 1968 histories of the BT23s, what on earth was teh Dave Webster car? Of the two candidates I figured, we have one still in Europe and the other in Japan.

Chris

[Bryan Miller]

Chris,

Noted your remarks re. F1R , I was beavering away on BT23'S and C's ready to start a new thread when along comes young Andrew Fellowes and sticks it in with my beloved BT29/30 etc. (But not any longer! - JT)

Your Williams supplied BT21 ?? doesn't have to be a BT23 , could be an old BT18 , BT21 fitted with the BT23 mag front uprights etc . and sent out to party on , remember Frank was dealing in these cars , and cobbling up a bitsa would not be a problem , not that I am suggesting it did happen , just could have.

Will really start trolling again on these soon ,via Autosport.
I need enlightenment on the Dave Webster car.
Bryan.

[allenbrown]

Chris

Can you tell us more about Dave Webster? I also have Bill Gubelmann appearing in a BT23 late in 1968 but I'm sure it must have been his usual BT21. Could Webster's BT23 be a misprint?

Allen