Touring Car Masters Imploding?

[Kingair]

Seems to be a few issues popping up in the TCM series this year.

Speedcafe reporting today, that the TCM series administrator Paul Taylor has resigned.

Speedcafe reported earlier in the week, that the TCM was being treated like the ugly sister at the recent Sydney round.

Adam Garwood stepped away from the series after two rounds.

[Mixer]

From the outside, I feel like they've been allowing some insane freedoms on certain cars, and others who maybe didn't lobby as hard have been left in the dust, and in the meantime the cars are somewhere between Supercars and Sports Sedans, and are eye-wateringly expensive.

I feel like this sort of arms race was unnecessary to put on the show, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Seeing the same sort of thing in Improved Production too, what was meant to be a cost effective class for cars able to be driven to and from the track, is now allowing Nascar and Supercar engines...

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Idk about being treated like an ugly sister, but they're the support class no matter where they go.

It wouldn't surprise me if they thought they'd go to ARG/Shannons events and step over TCR.

No, no, no. That's not how it rolls.

Anyway, the class gives me the same stench Commodore Cup got when they updated their cars.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

It wouldn't surprise me if they thought they'd go to ARG/Shannons events and step over TCR.

The show is light years ahead of TCR. The cars are fun to look at, and they sound great. I just think they've gone too far by allowing this here and there and now the things have really no relation to "as raced" spec but made more reliable with modern technology.

[bathurst77]

I feel they have been slowly waning for the last year or so
its basically mustang vs LH-X torana with 2 xds and a pacer hunting for opportunities.
Years ago we had chargers, XA-Bs, xu1, some 4 cylinder cars and other models.
The fields are shrinking, the variety going, and the racing dominated by 2 or 3 entrants.

And the cars are starting to suffer the "project blueprint" disease. They look like the real thing but in reality they are a purpose built sports sedan.

I liek them, but there are real "historic" classes I find more entertaining.

[one five five]

They are a popular class, but no category where the newest car model is 40 years old is going to be treated as anything other than a support event.

I think some of the competitors must be believing their own hype.

The category was starting to drop off a bit well before they joined ARG, so that’s not an excuse.

[GTRMagic]

Will Mr Taylor pop up as the "new engineer" Supercars is saying it has added to the Gen3 brainstrust?

[Umai Naa]

John Russell is their new man, apparently.

[bathurst77]

Did anyone watch group N historics at the bend?
Absolutely brilliant entertainment from a big field of beautiful cars and great variety of 4-6-8 rotary from lots of different brands and factories.
sideways action, spins plenty of passing and close racing

And they were genuine historics as raced not sports sedan in old skin
if you have fox/kayo and didnt get out of bed, watch the first event in sundays coverage
thank me later

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Mixer

From the outside, I feel like they've been allowing some insane freedoms on certain cars, and others who maybe didn't lobby as hard have been left in the dust, and in the meantime the cars are somewhere between Supercars and Sports Sedans, and are eye-wateringly expensive.

I feel like this sort of arms race was unnecessary to put on the show, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Seeing the same sort of thing in Improved Production too, what was meant to be a cost effective class for cars able to be driven to and from the track, is now allowing Nascar and Supercar engines...

By Jove! I think he's got it!

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

By Jove! I think he's got it!

I have been watching and competing in racing for 30 years. I have seen classes kill themselves by death of a thousand paper cuts.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Mixer

The show is light years ahead of TCR. The cars are fun to look at, and they sound great. I just think they've gone too far by allowing this here and there and now the things have really no relation to "as raced" spec but made more reliable with modern technology.

You know what your problem is?

When I say this, I actually do with a whiff of sadness because it's undeniable, and even more substantial and critical than any other accusation I could make. It's a problem other supercars fans that agree with you have and is an issue in F1 as well. I wish I thought of and understood the word a year ago.

Your interest (and those that share your views) in racing is primarily if not solely, focused on hedonism.

Only when cars that are 40-50yo are re-engineered to modern racing standards is where you draw the line as far as authenticity is concerned. That's nice.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

TCM is understandably imploding because the cars a too old and ****. They're done.

When you think about it, it's probably best for TCM nowadays if the class was a combination of mid-90s Group 3A cars, super touring, and the last of the Group A cars.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

You know what your problem is?

My problem is sheer disbelief that a guy who is so much an utter flog can figure out how to post on the internet.

Honestly you dribble so much **** you need a bib.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

The show is light years ahead of TCR. The cars are fun to look at, and they sound great.

It's far too V8 centric. (And some of the V8s are not even period-correct, which is absurd.) Some rotaries and turbos would add nicely to the mix as the class starts to overlap with Group C.

Where there were once Porsches, Datsuns and Alfa Romeos in TCM, there now seems be a lack of competitive European and Japanese cars... particularly at the front of the field.

Some prominent inline-sixes like a BMW 3.0CSL would also be most welcome at the front of the field (the Pacer of course being lovely in inline-six form but far more generic in V8 form ), plus the wailing Busso of a Alfa Romeo GTV6 should be a priority. A Jaguar XJS V12 would be a great addition too! Notably absent is also the Nissan Bluebird and Mazda RX7.

It's important to have a period-correct difference in power between vehicle types. The V8s shouldn't have 180% more power than a RX7 or GTV6, if they only had 60% more power than the RX7 or GTV6 in period.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

It's far too V8 centric. (And some of the V8s are not even period-correct, which is absurd.) Some rotaries and turbos would add nicely to the mix as the class starts to overlap with Group C.

I think this dovetails with the arms race, and silly eligibility decisions. That Torana is near as dammit to a Sports Sedan.

The thing is though, there is two ways they can go about it.

1. Abandon period correctness and make them in a way Supercars in old bodies, which is sort of what they have done now. But there are so many body shapes and engine types how can you figure out equalisation. Now they are haves and have nots and someone pulled the rug out from the have nots and now he's gone. You ended up with crazy expensive cars to run at the front and more and more exotic allowances made.

2. Stick with some semblance of period-correctness for engine & driveline and just enable more reliability with brakes, suspension etc. This sounds fine in theory and I know you'd like to watch it, but the reason we really ended up with #1 above is the sheer cost of running some of these old, exotic machines. Keeping them going is very expensive, and compared to #1 they are unreliable.

I guess we'll see what happens, but I don't really like where they are at the moment. It is a little bit of a house of cards. If you change too much, you might lose what the class still has going for it, or splinter the competitors.

[PVDA]

The original whole idea of TCM was to make Group N style cars safer by adding modern safety into them, trouble is as with anything that allows changes it has gone overboard.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

I think if you take away all the squabbling in TCM, the class is still enjoyable to watch but...

Its place in the pecking order is lower now with the advent of newly introduced classes such as TA2, S5000 etc. Both these classes appeal to fans of loud v8 machines, S5000 is your ultimate semi-affordable wings and slick class.

While TA2 is the most affordable way to go v8 sedan racing in Australia by a large margin, the reason there are now almost 80 cars here. It is quite possible many fans of this class aspire to own the road version of a camaro or mustang or even wish to one day purchase a ta2 racecar themselves.

TCR appeal is to a different crowd, a more European demographic that grew up on 4 cylinder racing. TCR is also a semi pro class in Australia, fit somewhere around Super2 level.

TCM needs to face it that while popular among an older demographic of fans, it now sits among a large group of competing classes with similar and sometimes growing popularity. Moving back to Supercar broadcast's is not a simple answer as there is still competition for a place with Super2, GT3, SuperUtes, Toyota 63 series etc

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

You know what your problem is?

When I say this, I actually do with a whiff of sadness because it's undeniable, and even more substantial and critical than any other accusation I could make. It's a problem other supercars fans that agree with you have and is an issue in F1 as well. I wish I thought of and understood the word a year ago.

Your interest (and those that share your views) in racing is primarily if not solely, focused on hedonism.

Only when cars that are 40-50yo are re-engineered to modern racing standards is where you draw the line as far as authenticity is concerned. That's nice.

Sometimes being hedonistic is ok, afterall for the majority motorsport is an pleasurable extra-circular activity. Therefore why would a person (fan) not want to watch what appeals to them. In a way your absolute devotion to 2 litre 4 cylinder cars is hedonistic as well, especially the fact that you see anger/ dissatisfaction when someone does not agree with you over tcr.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

In a way your absolute devotion to 2 litre 4 cylinder cars is hedonistic as well, especially the fact that you see anger/ dissatisfaction when someone does not agree with you over tcr.

There were plenty of 5 cylinder and V6 engines in 2000cc Super Touring racing.
Volvo 850
Ford Mondeo

Variety always adds a lot of value to a Touring Car racing class.

It's such a shame that the glorious six cylinder soundtrack of a Alfa Romeo GTV6 or BMW 3.0csi or csl is missing at the front of the TCM field (not to mention the notable absence of any Jaguar XJS V12s).

[One can listen to the Jimmy Richards 635csi all day, it's just wonderful! ]

It would be good to see some Rover SD1s on the grid too, even if that would mean more V8s.

Surely TCM has to be the home for racing these types of cars, without risking the priceless genuine examples (as in Group N and Group A/C)?

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by Mixer

The thing is though, there is two ways they can go about it.



2. Stick with some semblance of period-correctness for engine & driveline and just enable more reliability with brakes, suspension etc. This sounds fine in theory and I know you'd like to watch it, but the reason we really ended up with #1 above is the sheer cost of running some of these old, exotic machines. Keeping them going is very expensive, and compared to #1 they are unreliable.

I guess we'll see what happens,

I dont like option 1
I think you need some period correctness and relevance.
I dont want to see ford escorts or lj toranas with 350/351 mid mounted engines full spaceframe etc and supercar suspension.
I like the idea of "race specials" versions of the car of the day but with modern safety engine management and a limited range of minor body and aero tweaks.

No fiberglass or carbon body panels, engines under the bonnet not in the passenger compartment. H pattern gear boxes. and engine, running gear and suspension basic designs based on production, tho modernised and "worked".

If it came with a 2 litre 4cyl, 5 speed gearbox and elliptical springs, then thats what you race. If its a bmw that came with glorious straight 6, you can work that engine, but not fit a 350 chev.

But they dont need to be authentic. Nobody is going to risk a million dollar phase 3 for weekend giggles, so take an old falcon 500 repmobile and rebuild it with 351 and modernised.

I find it interesting the 2 XDs are so different SJs, has bigger flares and wings and a bonnet scoop, where z-mans is more stock looking. Does every xy have to be a "GTHO"?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

Sometimes being hedonistic is ok, afterall for the majority motorsport is an pleasurable extra-circular activity. Therefore why would a person (fan) not want to watch what appeals to them. In a way your absolute devotion to 2 litre 4 cylinder cars is hedonistic as well, especially the fact that you see anger/ dissatisfaction when someone does not agree with you over tcr.

No, it isn't. My support for 2 litre engines is because they're the optimal and most appropriate engine capacity. It solves almost all issues regarding Australian motorsport.

Pretty much any criticism of 2 litre cars is a hedonistic one. Here, v8central, speedcafe, any forum or media outlet.

It's taken me a while to nut it out, but it's pretty much it. And tbh, it doesn't surprise me that Mixer cracked it. I would too if someone summed up my motor racing fandom so cheaply.

[bathurst77]

hedonistic

adjective
engaged in the pursuit of pleasure; sensually self-indulgent.
"a hedonistic existence of booze, drugs, and parties"


My entire life in one word

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

hedonistic

adjective
engaged in the pursuit of pleasure; sensually self-indulgent.
"a hedonistic existence of booze, drugs, and parties"


My entire life in one word

Certainly how I WISH my whole life had been!

[Kingair]

Where does one join up for this hedonistic lifestyle?