Portugal 1986

[elephino]

I need some help to prove or disprove something.

In a newsgroup, this was posted...
"Henri Toivonen got it round Estoril in a 1.18.1 during the 1986 Portuguese Rally. To put that in perspective, Senna took pole in the Grand Prix that year in a 1.16.7. And yes, the track was dry for the F1 cars."

Can anyone tell me more about this, or if it is true/false/both.

I have done a little bit of research and it has possibly come from a book called "In Like
a Lamb...Out Like a Lion!"

Anyone?

[DAVID PATERSON]

This can't possibly be true. We've all seen the video with Jeremy Clarkson in a Ford Ka, McRae in the Cossie and Rubinho in the Stewart F1. The speed differential between all three was staggering.

[elephino]

But this is a 1986 F1 car and a 1986 Group B Lancia. Both very different beasts to todays cars.

[MichaelC]

I freely admit that while I remember reading this somewhere, I don't know if it's true or not.

I can see that the rally car would have certain advantages, and may be able to take one or two corners on the track quicker than an F1 car. However, I can't imagine that even in it's Group B form, a rally car would have the acceleration or smililar speed anywhere on the track to an F1 car. Estoril isn't a Hochenheim, all straights with the odd corner, but neither is is a Monaco. I just don't see how it can have been done, although please be sure I'm not saying it wasn't, because Henri Toivonen was an amazingly good driver.

If it had been around the Monaco circuit, I could have believed it quite easily

[GURRYP]

There used to be a rallycross circuit / superspecial at Estoril, I think people are getting these confused.


Gurryp

[Zep]

I have quoted that many times and I always wonder if it's true... But I have read it from the Finnish motorsport magazines quite often -and when it comes to rallying, they are maybe best in the world- so it might be true. Remember that it was Lancia Delta S4 and HENRI TOIVONEN. S4 had incredible acceleration, some say even better than F1-cars that time and driver was maybe the only rally driver EVER to be F1 material. Story also tells that Henri tested for one F1 team -can't remember team, ATS or some mid/backend team- and actually outqualified team's race driver...

Only if todays Finnish rally drivers were as quick in tarmac as Henri...

[GroupB4me]

Formula One for the forest, was one description of the Group B era.

The outrageous times at Estoril were set during the 1986 Rally of Portugal.
Nigel Mansell drove a GroupB in 1986 and claimed it was faster to 100mph than an F1 car.

Feather weight, over-powered and with outstanding mechanical grip, these were not just the ultimate rally car but all-time great race car.

[Snowman]

I am sorry,at the moment I cannot find staticts for this.
I could almoust believe it.
Those Lancias were some monsters at that time.
I remember very well H.Toivonen. He was very fast on race track even before he got his driving license.
He was first finnish rallydriver,who was really familiar at tarmac stages. In that light, I could easily believe it.

In my "card",if he should be in live, the record of world rally champions would be diffent now!

[chunder]

Come on guys, I like the rest of you remember the Gp B days with fondness but there is no way on God's earth a rally car could ever lap a race circuit quicker than an F1 car. Can you imagine it the other way round? Put a Williams in the Ulster lanes and see how it goes.
Fact time. F1 cars in 86 had approx 900=bhp with serious downforce and massive tyres.
The S4 had 575hp at the most, more weight and hardly any downforce.
THe rally route used the Estoril track for a stage. There is a club circuit at Estoril that cut out a section of track. Maybe this is the lap that someone has got confused with.
Henri was good but not that good.
Can you imagine Colin in an S4 or 205!!!

[GroupB4me]

What is wrong with you guys? It really happened!

Do a search on Group B rally cars. The truth is out there.
I just did a search through Microsoft and found everything I needed to know about the subject!
If you don't believe what you read on one site look elsewhere as well. That way you can confirm or deny what is true.
What has been discussed here as happening at Estoril in 1986 DID happen, I get the impression some people just don't want to believe it.
If it was at somewhere like Monza or Hockenheim then of course the F1 car would slaughter the Group B.

But it was at Estoril and it did happen!!!!
GET OVER IT!!

[elephino]

So prove it. Show us where the proof is. Give the links. I want to know.

[Snowman]

Sorry, this took some time!
You can find the story in some sites,but we must remember it was year 1986, what we are talking about here. Not much rally sites at that time
I asked this from Henri`s brother Harri Toivonen (fine rally/race driver he too, well ok their father Pauli win the Monte Carlo!!).
So,here is: Henri drove some tarmac tests in Estoril (yes the GP track) with Lancia and results were as it is here mentioned! He had "passanger" next to him,who had some "health problems" after rounds! The driving lines were a little diffent than F1 cars had, because of slide!
F1: Henri tested Rotmans March F1 and was faster than the real driver, not much but anyway...

I hope this helps??..

[GroupB4me]

Has anyone got access to the 1986 season Autocourse?
I have been led to believe that this happened during the Rally of Portugal.

[chunder]

I have the '86 Autocourse and Rallycourse and there is no mention of this act anywhere.
I still can't believe that you guys think that this happened.
There is no way on earth that a rally car no matter who was driving it would be faster than an F1 car around Estoril.
But I will tellyou where the confusion might come from.
The 1985 Portugese GP was very wet and was won by Ayrton Senna. His lap record from that race was 1m44s. Lauda set the FL the previous year at 1m23s and in 1986 the record came down to 1m20s.
Maybe the reporter was saying that Henri was quicker than the wet lap Senna set, which is just about possible I think.
Either way, I will bet my life on the fact that on any race circuit anywhere with any driver, a rally car would NEVER be quicker than a Formula 1 car. Just like an F1 car would never be quicker over a gravel stage.

[Ricardo]

Hi there !

I was at Estoril during the 1986 Portuguese Rally, and I must clarify that there was no Estoril Stage that year. The Rally started on the circuit but the stages were in Sintra. So Im afraid that could not happen in 1996. But even if there were some testing at Estoril earlier, most of the times they didnt took the whole circuit, but the short version...

Anyway I didnt heard nothing similar, and im sure that would be real news here in Portugal. Toivonen was really the best... I miss him a lot in Rallying... Last time I saw him was in that Portuguese Rally og 1986, when he was telling the journalists the reasons why all factory Pilots would stop racing after Joaquim Santos RS 200 accident. A few weeks later... we all know the history..

Anyway if there is someone who can confirm the story, it is the journalist Martin Holmes, very close to Toivonen and a real expert on this kind of histories.

Hope this helps...

[Ricardo]

on the 3rd row you should read "...could not happen in 1986..."

[Zep]

Read carefully SNOWMAN's post. It was tarmac testing, not race. That's also what I remember reading or hearing from somewhere. Lancia was testing in Estoril, not racing...

[Snowman]

Yes Zep !

That is why (during testing sesssion) you cannot find it from statics.
I could not contact mr Alen, so if this bothers you still,
Lancia Team members of that time could remember it.

Hey, if you cannot handle the truth,please dont ask