Lites / LMP3

[ss_collins]

IMSA Lites has confirmed its existence and ALMS support for the
next five years, and the Pug 207 is rumoured to be an entry in a new pan European Lites championship. Australia and Japan look likely to get in on the action too could this be a new accesible way to go prototype racing? Certainly its pushing manufacturers towards LMP2's as the teams and drivers develop. Could we see Adam Pecorari in a new Panoz LMP2 next year (probably not) but its the spring board to bigger things...

[FIRE]

The Pug doesn't look like a "LMP3".

[Erki]

LMP3 to Australia?

[Suze]

There's one car already there that someone's competing in, built by West.

[veeten]

this article helps to look at the formula, manufacturers, and possibilities that will come from LMP3. It's from late '05, but very helpful.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/i...ftheFuture.pdf

[Suze]

There will be a Lites article coming out in the near future, probably the Feb issue.

[Erki]

Way way way OT: Suze are you really 17? From your posts I thought you were a bit older.

back to normal service...

[Suze]

No, three, just very mature

[benjabulle]

I was at Ledenon (France) yesterday for a VdeV race with Norma, Juno, Ligier and Merlin cars. Good show, many competitors and the cars look good, with 2 or 3 more brands that would be fine.

[Erki]

Any rough guesses of how thick wallet one has to have to compete in one "Lite" championship?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

IMSA Lites has confirmed its existence and ALMS support for the
next five years, and the Pug 207 is rumoured to be an entry in a new pan European Lites championship. Australia and Japan look likely to get in on the action too could this be a new accesible way to go prototype racing? Certainly its pushing manufacturers towards LMP2's as the teams and drivers develop. Could we see Adam Pecorari in a new Panoz LMP2 next year (probably not) but its the spring board to bigger things...

Peugeot 207 Spider will be a one make series that supports the LMS I believe.

The Radical World Cup race we saw at Donington may also support some/all the LMS rounds.

Can't see them running in mixed fields.

[GT-Eins]

Originally Posted by Erki

Any rough guesses of how thick wallet one has to have to compete in one "Lite" championship?

depends on
1) car cost included or not
2) new car / old car
3) ambition
4) season cost
5) the championship you want to compete in

1) as all "lite" or "LMP3"-championships are pure privateer classes, costs are far less than in (X)LMS
however main cost factor would be the car if you aquire one
normally that car should be then able to be competetive for the next 5 years

2) old cars are available from about 20T€ upwards (as usual in Motorsport no uppper limit exists) but with less than 100T€*you will have all options and choices
for new cars I know they are in the range between 40 & 250T€
available manufacturers (please inform yourself on their websites) I know are f.e.:

large number producers:
* Radical
* Osella
* PRC
* Lucchini
* Norma
small number producers:
* CvO
* Breda
* Tampolli
* Martini
* Picchio
* URD
* Sharon
* Jade
* Debora
* Zeus
* Centenari
* Argo
* Bogani
single constructors:
* Pilbeam
* Stenger
* UWR
* Faust
* Serra
* Acid
* YCAR
* Corbari
and as you see this list is far from being complete...

3) ambition & talent: are you a wealthy privateer with a need for a new set of tires for each training session or an underfinanced talented hot shoe who can beat the opponents on worn or hardened sets? - the latter fact will help you definetly to save money.

4) However you should be able to afford 30-40k per season at least to save you from relying on "knock on wood" tactics. For title ambitions you should be able to at least double that sum.

5) is your targeted championship a single make one, a more historic one or a one with high technical level? Does it have endurance or sprint-format? - It may have an effect on cost if all kind of high sophisticated machinery are allowed (like LMP900 f.e.)

championships I know are:
- Sportscar Challenge (austrian based)
- championato italiano prototipi
- VdeV Endurance
- VdeV sprint moderne
- Britsports
- Swedish prototype series
- IMSA-Lite
- all kind of S2000-series
- all kind of Radical-series
- various hill-climb series

[GT-Eins]

Beyond others I forgot Ligier (=Martini) and Lola as manufacturers in above list

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by GT-Eins

depends on
- ambition

Good sir:
I you said it all with that.
Bob

[Suze]

Erki, from what I have found / seen, it really can vary!

But, for what it is, it is in my opinion cheap.

[GT-Eins]

Agree - Maybe in a Porsche-Cup you can run a sportscar-season with a similar budget, but the LMP3 are for sure faster and more fun to drive. I think they can provide a basis for teams to grow up into the LMS-scene. At least from the radical-cup and from VdeV some teams already took the route to LMS.

Are there some IMSA-lite-teams which have definitive ALMS-plans?

[Tim Northcutt]

There are even more constructors than those that GT-Eins has listed...his list doesn't include builders in the USA, Brazil, or Japan....and there are others that are planning to get into the constructor business in the coming months.

At the prices in which they can provide a turn-key race car (average price range of about $70,000 USD), but some can be bought for about $50,000-$55,000, these builders can sell dozens, if not hundreds of them (in the case of Radical).

What is needed in this industry is a universal standard for construction and general specifications, so that the builders can sell to competitors internationally.

[GT-Eins]

Hi Tim
The list was taken from a recent thread in our forum mentioning just the contructors with CN-based cars
From the additional constructors you know - which ones are making chassis which are also CN-eglible?
And which ones from the other "LMP3"-constructors are the largest? - to be honest I have no overview about US/Japan/Brasil .

I totally agree with you that a standard would be needed - whether FIA-CN is the way to go would have to be discussed...

[Suze]

To bump this up, apparently Adam (who won the IMSA Lites championship this year) was racing in an LMP2 Radical at Laguna Seca this weekend.

[ss_collins]

Are there some IMSA-lite-teams which have definitive ALMS-plans?

Intersport run 2 Lites already.

as all "lite" or "LMP3"-championships are pure privateer classes, costs are far less than in (X)LMS

Not true Radical, West and Panoz have all run works cars - Pecorari, Bender and Borgudd can all be considered Elite drivers.

if you aquire one
normally that car should be then able to be competetive for the next 5 years

this is the case with IMSA Lites - stability until 2011.

Currently the only official Lites are built by Radical, West and Panoz.

Updtated producer list

large number producers:
* Radical
* Osella
* PRC
* Lucchini
* Norma
* Ligier
* Juno
* Elan
* West
* Stohr
* Speads
* Lola
* Funyo

small number producers:
* CvO
* Breda
* Tampolli
* Martini
* Picchio
* URD
* Sharon
* Jade
* Debora
* Zeus (now Palmersport JP1)
* Centenari
* Argo
* Bogani
* Chiron

single constructors:
* Pilbeam
* Stenger
* UWR
* Faust
* Serra
* Acid
* YCAR
* Corbari


Series - Don't forget SCCA C/D sports, Also a spec Dallara F304 based series in Japan. There is a new Lites based series kicking of in Oz

[benjabulle]

I just added a page on LMP3 cars with photos, here :
http://www.gurneyflap.com/lmp3.html
I put 5 different cars, Norma, Ligier, Juno, Merlin and Gunn, tell me if you want more, I may have 3 or 4 other ones.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by benjabulle

I just added a page on LMP3 cars with photos, here :
http://www.gurneyflap.com/lmp3.html
I put 5 different cars, Norma, Ligier, Juno, Merlin and Gunn, tell me if you want more, I may have 3 or 4 other ones.

Nice detail photos.

[Tony_Simpson]

As mentioned before in this thread there is alot of manufacturers out there with cars and alot of potential to be a very successful series. There is the potential to get a set of rules to provide some sort of feeder for manufacturers, drivers and teams alike to progress up the ladder.

LMP3 cars could be the top of this ladder, with cars say upto 3litre, with approx 350bhp and a sensible minimum weight. This would be similar to the top class in the Britsports series at the moment.

Below that could be the LMP4 series, with up to 2litre car based engine, and 1500cc (1400cc?) bike based engine, with approx 250bhp, This would be similar to the CN series, and the old UK National supersports series.

Finally a LMP5 type series with up to 1600cc car based engines, and 1000cc bike based engines, with say approx 200bhp. This is based upon the very successful US D-sports series.

If a maximum cost of chassis is set down, and some ideas to control engine and race meeting cost, then i feel there is alot of potential for the series. The constructors would then build one car, and have a world wide market for them.

I understand there is already alot of cars that are built in the UK and sold abroad for example, but each country has a different set of rules. If the rules were closer written then that should mean it would be easier to sell a car. Even if the class is not called the same, having the same set of rules

As said before there is alot of potential here, and will be interesting to see how LMP3 cars get on in this comming year. There has been alot of growth in this market and long may it continue

[old man]

How does the British Mallock clubmans car fit this idea? Many of the cars look a bit like the Chevron or Lola from the 1970's

[ScuderiaV8]

Looking on Mulsannes's Corner there's a link to a new championship in the USA based on FIA Group CN/C3 regulations, effectively replicating the European VdeV series:
http://www.modernendurance.com

Seeing as IMSA Lites is currently limited to 2 different chassis manufacturers, this series possibly opens up the sportscar scene in the US to more of the established manufacturers previously mentioned in this thread.
Additionally, the support of the ISCMA for the championship makes me wonder if this could be a step towards some overall LMP3 chassis regulations...?