Speed differentials in Club racing. Split from CTCRC thread

[Bob Gray]

SAFETY!!
The MSA need to look at the speed differentials of multi class championships that allow such cars/drivers to race and maybe apply a maximum lap time difference between the classes or enforce the one that iirc already exists. Maybe capping the bhp and or speed for Nat B events would work.

Mod Note. This thread is started from another thread which went off at a tangent.

[Al Weyman]

As someone who is often shown the blue flag just keep looking in your mirrors and do your upmost not to make it difficult for the faster cars to get past I have even heaven forbid lifted off the throttle on occassions. As a spectator on tis one I would say it was just unfortunate that we had two sets of cars both racing each other with very little between the two slower cars and the too fast cars which meant no one wanted to give an inch, understandable I guess but I also don't think that hairpin helps and was in exactly the same spot last year at the Historic V8's inaugural round and nearly ended in me demolishing a million pound ex work AC Cobra if I hadnt taken to the grass after he slewed infront of me trying to avoid the carnage. It was nothing to do with speed differntials and I think talk of BHP caps at club events etc is just silly, where is all this coming from?

[chezza]

One thing that that the faster drivers do seem to forget that it is their job to find their way safely round the car they are lapping, not for the car being lapped to get out of their way. However this situation isn't helped by the fact that in F1 it is run the other way round.


The faster cars should not be ruining the races of the slower cars around them. Yes racing incidents do happen, but sometimes I think that the faster cars do seem to bully their way round.

[ascona i2000]

Originally Posted by Bob Gray

SAFETY!!
The MSA need to look at the speed differentials of multi class championships that allow such cars/drivers to race and maybe apply a maximum lap time difference between the classes or enforce the one that iirc already exists. Maybe capping the bhp and or speed for Nat B events would work.

Power capping cars in something like Classic THUNDER seems daft, it is the correct home for high power cars after all?

[Al Weyman]

Anyhow I think a natural cap will be arrived at. I remember the guy who built a third gen Firebird with a twin turbo charged small block chevy reputed to pump out 1000bhp, as I undersatnd it he took the turbos off as the thing was uncontrollable.

[Tim Falce]

I think a bigger problem is not speed differential but more the size of cars involved. A series I sometimes race in has some extremely powerful beasts in and some cars with high power to weight ratios but they are quite low cars.

With some of the high powered cars, I'm talking about Cobra reps with 700+bhp, they are fast in a straight line but no faster than me round the bendy bits but are easy to see. However if you get the likes of Caterhams, Crossles etc they can be difficult to see and tend to go round corners the same speed they go down the straights, this is when the problems start as you often dont know where they are or where they're going to place themselves in relation to your car.

[Peter Mallett]

Another point is experience. Many club drivers will see an opportunity to race and go for the fastest thing on four wheels yet they have no experience of racing, which is vastly different to driving on a road. They get in the car and plant the foot. I recall one novice driver in an RS 2000 who was leading me around Oulton Park. He had the car up on its toes at every corner, you could see the tail swing wildly while the suspension tried to catch up. I left him to it, eventually he ran on at the first corner and I went on my way. He'd ruined my particualr race but then again at least I wasn't involved in his accident.

[wheelsportaddict]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Another point is experience. Many club drivers will see an opportunity to race and go for the fastest thing on four wheels yet they have no experience of racing, which is vastly different to driving on a road. They get in the car and plant the foot. I recall one novice driver in an RS 2000 who was leading me around Oulton Park. He had the car up on its toes at every corner, you could see the tail swing wildly while the suspension tried to catch up. I left him to it, eventually he ran on at the first corner and I went on my way. He'd ruined my particualr race but then again at least I wasn't involved in his accident.

I think this is a case of people needing to learn a bit common sense. If you're going to go racing, don't just buy the fastest thing you can afford and that's beyond the limit of your ability. Get a car that you can learn your racecraft in but isn't going to push you beyond the capacity of your abilities.

[chezza]

Sadly common sense doesn't always prevail. A grid of evenly matched slower cars is way better than something with a million BHP blasting away at the front, but people want to drive the fastest thing out there. When did wining at all costs start rather than racing to have a good time, this is club racing after all?

[medius]

Originally Posted by chezza

A grid of evenly matched slower cars is way better than something with a million BHP blasting away at the front

Not sure I agree, argueably theres more panel damage from one-make series than the likes of QMN, CT where there are power differences.

All it boils down to, is a good drivers briefing where its made crystal clear that yes, its a sport, but not a win-at-all-costs sport. At the front it's obviously going to be a case of the best drivers chasing fractions of tenths of seconds, and sometimes risks have to be taken to make a pass to stay ahead of the game. But like most things in life, hindsight is 20/20 and backing off to make a 100% pass is better than a risky 60% one. Making the most of opportunities in the right way is what turns an average racing driver into a great racing driver, not the bazillion horses the motor builder has harnessed.

Poor decisions cause most accidents on track, not speed differentials, power, car choice etc.

[chezza]

Ah I was meaning in the racing point of view rather than from a panel damage point of view.

As the saying goes, its not speed that kills, but the sudden stop.

As someone else has said, not sure if its come over here or if it is still in the other thread, but maybe there should be a limit...a novice with no racing experience shouldn't be able to go out in a 1000bhp car, that only comes with a Nat A licence for example. A bit like the single seaters in sprinting, you have to (or at least used to, its been a while since I was a secretary at a sprint) hold a race licence to be able to sprint one.

[wheelsportaddict]

Originally Posted by medius

Poor decisions cause most accidents on track, not speed differentials, power, car choice etc.

I wish a certain F1 driver would learn that!

[RKTuning]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKSRaC18epw

[tail out]

The speed difference between the monster stuff and the slower cars (fiestas etc) is mental. Didnt they used to split the grids years ago to overcome this problem.

[chezza]

Would be interesting to see the same period of video from the other Skyline too, but as has been said this was declared a racing incident and is all done with. Carrying on could end up causing more harm than good.

[Minicross424]

Just looked at that posted video and the speed difference is mental.
They go past cars like they are standing still.
I'm not sure restrictors are the way to go but think that cars of this speed need to race with cars of very similar lap times or bhp.

[RKTuning]

Originally Posted by chezza

Would be interesting to see the same period of video from the other Skyline too, but as has been said this was declared a racing incident and is all done with. Carrying on could end up causing more harm than good.

[terence]

Isn't it a fact of life that even in one make series,there are always slower/faster drivers? This day and age organisers are keen to get full grids,understandable really.The price per grid dictates that full grids really are essential otherwise the organiser goes under and then the problem gets worse by the cars that have lost their series,then get invited to other club grids to help fill them,its a vicious circle thats been around for many years.

[Code Red Man.]

Originally Posted by Minicross424

Just looked at that posted video and the speed difference is mental.
They go past cars like they are standing still.
I'm not sure restrictors are the way to go but think that cars of this speed need to race with cars of very similar lap times or bhp.

They used to run against similar cars not so long ago...Also, don't forget Joss was there in a 7.2 V8 car, quite similar type of car too.

Its just an unfortunate incident, and sometimes 'Thats racing'.

[wheelsportaddict]

Originally Posted by RKTuning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKSRaC18epw

Originally Posted by chezza

Would be interesting to see the same period of video from the other Skyline too, but as has been said this was declared a racing incident and is all done with. Carrying on could end up causing more harm than good.

Totally agree, it was an unfortunate incident. The poor guy in the Escort was trying to watch three things at once; the Escort in front, you on his right and the other Skyline on his left.

Of course, he may well have been unsighted to your car if all he saw was the other Skyline pulling out to the left to over take and moved over to give him room not realizing you were there.

[Al Weyman]

We are having a split grid in the Historic V8's this weekend, be interesting to see how it works out, personally I cannot see it making any difference apart from the fact the faster cars will be on top of us in a matter of laps then probably come round for a second or even third go. Aprt from a mellee on the opening laps I cant see it helping much.

[chezza]

I have to agree with you there Al. I think a split grid only works for two similarly paced groups, if you have one that is a lot faster than the other then the lappery just starts earlier, which is often what causes the issues, rather then the difference at the start.

[Dom]

As a driver of a 'slow' Fiesta, i like the mixed speeds and abilitys of different cars. It often creates passing opportunities for us guys at the back when we are lapped as well as honing our mirror watching craft I've been racing long enough to know how best to get out of the way of lapping cars while not messing up my race.

Ultimately safe multi class racing is going to boil down to all classes of cars (drivers) having some respect for other peoples races and remember that for 99% of us it's only club racing and therefore for fun - so go easy on the unsafe pass and wait a moment for the next straight.

Failing that, how about a Nat C license (other letters may be available) that requires 10 Clerk signatures for you driving in tail gunner class before being allowed a Nat B license..

[Stacy]

Slightly reluctant to post in this thread given the obvious history that's evident here, but on balance I thought I'd say this;

I don't think this Skyline accident video is a good example of the problems of closing speeds. There was a gap on the right I'd have probably taken in the same position, and the accident was 4 going into 1, not the speeds involved.

None of that group seemed to do a great deal wrong in the grand scheme of things. So I think that's a red herring.

There is a discussion to be had about general protocol with leaders pushing past backmarkers perhaps, but that would be the same discussion that applies in every class based series I've ever raced in. So I'll post on that basis.

I've always tried to be courteous in both qualifying and the race to those in lower classes, after all I'm not in front of them because I'm necessarily bigger or better (well, I'm probably bigger). All the same I have still tagged a couple over the years as they were either not aware or who thought we were racing.

However I've also lost a race from coming across what was essentially a German rolling roadblock of squabbling stragglers, and being faced with the choice of removing someones mirrors (they weren't using them anyway) and providing them with an orange go-faster stripe, or waiting for the traffic to clear, I chose the latter.

When I've been in a lower class car (24hr for example) I strove to make sure that whilst not disadvantaging myself I did try and ensure there was sufficient space for the quick guys to get through cleanly. Here's the rub; we know what the rules say, stick to your line etc, but consideration can be a two way street.

Stacy.

[chezza]

Stacy you have hit the nail on the head there with your post regarding protocol when lapping/being lapped.

One thing that always stuck in my mind that one of the drivers I have spoken to has said is when racing at Brands you look in your mirrors as you goon to top straight and theres no one there by the time your at the end the faster cars have not only caught you up but have passed you. I think sometimes the faster cars forget just how quickly they are coming up on the slower cars and they often don't know that they are there, let alone have time to react to take the right line.