UK Historic Saloons

[Moosehead]

Hi all, I've been lurking here for a while. Sorry if this turns out to be a lengthy post.

I am looking into joining one of the UK Historic Saloon Series' next year, either the HSCC or the CSCC. I am currently Sprinting & Hillclimbing a 1965 Mustang Coupe which is the car I want to race (I can hear the groans - but honest I am on a tight budget).

I have read the Regs for the various series but am wondering just how specific things have to be. My main concern is my engine, it is a Ford crate engine with alloy heads - I accept they have to go, no problem there. Trouble is my block, its a 1995 standard production 5litre block which is basically the same as a 302 block which is basically the same as a 289 as was originally fitted in '65, would I be allowed to use this? If not then it looks like my racing aspirations will have to be put on hold. I really can't see that it would make any difference at all especially performance wise as the block, crank, rods & pistons are all standard production items not specific race parts.

What I am trying to avoid is turning up with the car then being told I can't use it because of the block or spending loads of money on finding a 289 short engine only to find out that my original block would have been fine.

I daresay some will say that if I can't afford to buy a new engine then I shouldn't be considering racing, especially something as big as a Mustang. But I just want to join in, I'm a clubbie wanting to compete in club racing.

I know I coulda posted this in the Tech forum but I know a lot of current racers read this forum and (hope) I'll get a better reply. :-)

Cheers

[John Turner]

Very warm welcome, Moosehead. There should be quite a few posters here that should be able advise you.

[Al Weyman]

High Moosehead and welcome to the site. When you say CSCC I do do hope you mean CTCRC (Classic Touring Car Race Club) the new name for the Classic Saloon Car Club and not the Classic Sports Car Club which is a different organisation.

I have just joined the CTCRC and raced my Camaro at the last two rounds and can say I enjoyed both the races and the club and found them very hospitable and approachable.

Back to your Mustang, I am only qualified to answer as far as I have pretty much digested their regulations over the past 9 months or so while preparing my 73 Camaro so they are fresh in my mind. As I understand it all the Ford range from 289 to 400ci have a 4 inch bore and the extra capacity is achieved by a longer stroke. Now I know you would definitely not be allowed to race with a 302ci sized engine as you would get protested but IMHO if the block was the same dimensions and deck height the same as I am pretty sure it is and you ran the shorter 289 crank I would contact the regulations secretary and put the proposal by him. I know good 289 blocks are rare so I as a fellow competitor would have no problem at all with you running it. They do allow the Rover to run the cross bolted block and I think there is consessions for Ford and Mini blocks and as I say they are a sensible club so give them a look up.

[Moosehead]

Thanks for the warm welcome both.
Al, yep I meant the CTCRC (doesn't roll off the tongue or keyboard too well does it!) Thats certainly something to look into regarding cranks though still a bit of a pain if thats what I have to do. Any idea what the max overbore would be on a 289? I'm guessing that wouldn't be too far off 302 surely? Its all a little annoying as I know my engine only produces about 300hp, 100hp down on many of the Mustangs racing yet its looking like I've gotta spend a small fortune replacing or rebuilding a perfectly (actually virtually brand new) engine. AAaaarrrghh!!

[Al Weyman]

From memory a 60 thou overbore, I am sure you would not be allowed to run with the 302 crank (Stacy will chip in I hope) because they were never made in that configuration, I know it seems a bit unfair but I guess thats the way it is, you pick yer car and all that. I mean if I turned up with a 400ci in my Chevy which is exactly the same external dimensions that also would not be fair if you know what I mean.

Personally if I was you I would leave that engine intact the way it is and try to sell it to a kitcar man (great for a Cobra) or a specials builder and do another motor from scratch and use the money from the sale to help fund it. I have a simliar issue with my other car which is an 87 IROC Camaro. Now these 3rd gen cars (not the IROC version) first appeared in 82 and would be elligible for the pre 83 but unfortunately they were never fitted with a 5.7 till 86 so I would have to run it with a 305 which is not as tunable as a 350 having a smaller bore size. Again the 305 and 350 are dimensionally (externally) identical but that is the way it is.

[Moosehead]

Right then, For Sale Brand new Ford Motorsport crate engine, will consider swap for 289 Full race engine to FIA spec with at least 500hp that revs to 7k Hehe.

*sulking back to the drawing board*

[Al Weyman]

You don't need 500bhp to do the job and I doubt if you could get those heady figures from a 289. :-)

Remember this before you get too disenchanted you could run your car a fair bit lighter than my old tub in fact about 140kgs so that would make a big difference, those Mustangs can be very competitve. Bite the bullet and go for it!

[Moosehead]

Woohooo............. just downloaded the tech regs for CTCRC and they state that Mustangs can use replacement blocks part number M6010-A50 thats what my engine is based on. Looks like I can run my block, just gotta change my heads.

I was joking about 500hp btw :-)

[Al Weyman]

You are right I told you they were sensible regs, I have never looked at the pre 66 regs as my car is too new, careful though before you break out the champagne, it clearly states that Class A cars MUST use the original stroke crank and not the original for the block that is used, seek clarification first is the safe way to go.

[Moosehead]

Yep, just noticed that, thought it was too good to be true, ho hum.

[Al Weyman]

Ah well you are halfway there. At least you will only need a crank and pistons. Rods, heads, cam and everything else are interchangable and pistons are cheap enough for yank motors, make a nice high revving short stroke engine. Go fo it!!!!!

[MGDavid]

Another way of approaching the problem is to say if you can't tell the difference from the outside then run as you are - no one is gonna protest until you start winning something and if you are a rookie then that's unlikely in the first year surely - not being too harsh am I? Whatever you do, enjoy! Oh, and if you accidentally come first, you can always 'protest yourself' and ask to be removed from the results sheet. I used to organise an autotest event and enter just for fun. Was winning it outright one year and had to deliberately slow and hit a cone on the last test....

[Moosehead]

Not too harsh :-) however, I think it would be a little unfair on anyone that I did have a dice with no matter how far down the field. I was maybe thinking if the Tech scrutineers would allow me to run as is, as long as all other competitors were in agreement - workable or a dream? If not, back to the crank & pistons shop!!

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

I was maybe thinking if the Tech scrutineers would allow me to run as is, as long as all other competitors were in agreement - workable or a dream? If not, back to the crank & pistons shop!!

Hi,

Sorry I don't have the time to trawl this stuff recently so have missed this before now.

I'll have to do some digging on some of this detail, but in the meantime we'd be delighted to see you! I think it's in the spirit of what we're trying to do, so I'm sure we can work something out.

For example, you could in any case race the car in one of our Pre-66 races in class G which is an invitation class - I'll invite you ;-)

The discussions will have to come around your second race on the day in Pre-74, (or the 1st if there's no 66 race at the meeting) but lets not worry too much at this stage.

Why don't you hook up with me via email and I'll take it all to the committee formally, so you know where you are before you join?

I think you can get my email from the profile @btopenworld.com? Don't want to post it here or some trawler will be flogging me viagra. Then again....

All the best

Stacy

[Moosehead]

Thanks Stacy, I've sent you a PM if thats ok

[zefarelly]

is your car a notch back or a fast back ?

Its probably worth giving Marcus pye at the MSA a call to get the homologation papers if your looking at pre66, it'd give you te broadest option of race meets, having said that you'll have plenty of action with CTCRC, and I think you'd be eligible for HRSR with a newer engine as well. their website ( via HSCC website) has regs on it as well as CTCRC

[Moosehead]

Hi zefarelly, its a notchback. I've got the HRSR Regs too and the engine restrictions are very similar to CTCRC.
Their Regs state that blocks must come from the same family of engines that was available within the cut off date (Dec 1966), it then goes on to say that they must be of original design etc etc.

As far as I know the 302 block is essentially the same as a 289.

I'll give Marcus a ring, thanks

[Al Weyman]

All sorted hopefully then Moosehead, personally and it is my own opinion as a competitor and I have no say in this at all but if I was running in the same class I would have no problem with it provded you entered the car as a 5 litre and ran to the correct weight a five litre should be at.

I personally don't subscribe to the other view of basically running and be damned and I will tell you why because when I ran a race club I had a bit of this. The problem is not if you win so much as if you take out a front runner who may be competing for the title.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

Hi zefarelly, its a notchback. I've got the HRSR Regs too and the engine restrictions are very similar to CTCRC.
Their Regs state that blocks must come from the same family of engines that was available within the cut off date (Dec 1966), it then goes on to say that they must be of original design etc etc.

As far as I know the 302 block is essentially the same as a 289.

I'll give Marcus a ring, thanks

Moosehead

Sorry to be so late to the party but I have just seen this thread whilst trawling back in the archives.

As Al said with the CTCRC regs our HRSR regs also allow blocks from the same family though you would have to run with the standard stroke with a max 60 thou overbore.

Your Mustang would be a welcome addition to our Class A running against Mk II Jags and 'S' Type Jags and could certainly be prepared cheaper than to App K spec.

[andy97]

I am sure that the Mustang would be very welcome in the Classic Sports Car Club's "Swinging Sixties" series, too. 30 min practice and 40 min races for one or two drivers. Great value for money & sensible regs. If Carlsberg organised a race series it would probably be one of the CSCC's!

[Al Weyman]

Blimey too many places to race!

[Moosehead]

Crikey, talk about dragging up an old topic


Andy97: I spent all of 2007 with the CSCC Swinging Sixties series and even went to Daytona with them. Will be doing the same in 2008

[socram]

Interesting thread to someone who runs two classic series in NZ, for European saloons, sports and GTs, pre 1977 and run ons.

We adopt a more pragmatic approach (that not everyone agrees with I might add) as we cover a wide range of cars of different ages and capacities. We currently have 105 paid up drivers (don't forget NZ only has a total population of 4m, and 3m of those in the North Island).

We allow a certain amount of modifications under national rules, but issues such as the Mustang block as above, can cause a lot of frustration, and potentially sideline nice cars.

Given that racing a Morgan V8 or an MG Midget for example, whether bog standard or otherwise, should mean that the Morgan will always win, out and out scratch racing for mixed classics has been approached from a different angle.

ALL our points scoring races are traditional handicaps, where the handicapper's (me!) objective is to get all cars to the finishing line at exactly the same time, then the technical issues and theoretical performance gains become less important, and the concentration moves to enjoying the cars, driving them within the car and driver's limits. Effectively, the series becomes a bit of a lottery as no series winner can be predicted in advance. The drivers love it. No bonnet lifting and no accusations. Its all very gentlemanly as we also enforce driving standards - dodgem car drivers get chucked out.

For those who advocate out and out scratch racing of classics, (and apparently, there are problems at the highest levels with over driving and 'cheating' in Europe), I understand the need to win, but with it comes with the baggage...

As a spectator, I want to see a variety of cars. As a racer, I just want the opportunity to race my car. Results don't matter and quite frankly, to quote one local ex-UK classic racer. "Hey, if it looks like a Mustang, it probably is a Mustang. What is the problem?"