State of The Nation

[Peter Mallett]

Reading through some of the other posts in Trackside etc. It seems that the UK motorsport scene is once again in turmoil. Reduced grids, championships being canned etc.

As racers what is your take on this? I've been in "cold turkey" since last year so I can't comment. Over to you.

[Nick Sanderson]

I can't speak for the national scene, but the Scottish championships seem to be going the other way. For example, the XR2's are now in their 6th season and at the last meeting there were 31 cars entered. The Scottish 'Legends' series started last year (with only 6 cars) but they are now up to roughly 14 cars and always increasing the grid. Also, new for this year, the Scottish Caterham series kicked off. Again, although we only have 7 cars at present, more people are still joining.
Anyone interested in the Fiestas or Caterhams can contact myself for more info.
Cheers,
Nick
www.ns-r.co.uk

[Chris Y]

What I have noticed, and I don't know if anyone else has seen this - there is a rise in club saloon championship grids, seemingly at the loss of some of the others.

By 'club saloon championships', I'm more referring to the road-going car based series, as opposed to tin-tops like GTs, which suffered a bit of a drawback recently with the demise of the ISC.

Maybe the reason for this is that these championships are where the majority of the new drivers are being tempted into when they start motorsport - saloon series like the 2CVs, Fulda Fiats, Mighty Minis, Road Saloons and Stock Hatches are in rude health at the moment, and will probably always be popular..

It seems to me a lot of the failures have been aimed at the higher end of UK motorsport - ISC has been canned, Andy Rouse's series (Supercars?) has been more or less forgotten, EuroCars have become more of a club-level series, and a lot of manufacturer-supported one-make championships have ended up combined with other championships.

Do you think the country's championships are too top-heavy?
Too many series requiring lots of money and experience to get into?
Do we need better defined paths for drivers to 'climb the ladder', or better financial support for up-and-coming drivers?

What do you think?

[Slowcoach]

I agree Chris - and particularly with privateers it looks to me as though the gap between the top and the bottom is ever widening . More and more people entering the championships you mention , Stock hatches , 2CVs etc (and a few returning to racing) because of the need to keep costs down . This is undoubtedly the best route , those who can drive to the circuit can save on the need for a trailer and a large tow vehicle. Generally the cars are relatively cheap to buy and mods are strictly limited thus giving the novice a real chance to be in the thick of the action-and when they too close to the action the repair bills are likely to be 'reasonable'.Then you have the popstars and the dotcom millionaires who just buy a classic Ferrari or a Boss Formula 1 car or the like and off they go , no financial worries there ! The former middle tier racers are being gradually squeezed out , primarily by the costs - £150 to enter a race , £200 per tyre , £100-£200 in fuel to drive to/from and compete in a race not to mention the odd bump or two along the way needing attention. At a recent meeting I attended at BH , Formula Saloons - an excellent series - managed only about 12 or 14 car grids whereas Legends had 30 odd......
I know from my experience having begun at the tail end of last year it has so far gone way beyond even my wildest worse-case scenario on the budget front - one more problem and that will probably be it for this year.
It seems to me that in the CSCC we have a large pool of members registered to race , but that quite a few are being alot more selective about where and how frequently they race , often just sticking to a few of their more 'local' events and I think it is a scenario mirrored in other 'middle-tier' championships.
All comes back to costs and profile I'm afraid.......

[marcus]

what ive noticed is alot of your national racing is held in England !!!!!!!

[SNH]

England is where most of the population is. Do you have circuit racing in the outback????

I havent raced for a year & a half. Trying to get some cash together. I think club racing has got more expensive in the last 12 years that I have been racing. Much more professional. Maybe TOO much.

[Brianv]

Jumpers for goal posts !Having not raced or indeed been a CSCC member since 1983 costs ,particulary entry fees, have risen enormously.
Unless clubs keep a tight reign on modifactions allowed in order to be even mildly competitive can be very expensive.
Is the old CSCC spirit of taking part still alive what do the founder members think or other saga(or near saga) racers think.(Mike C,Royston,Tony
PS I note Andy Mc is racing in Road Saloons ,they drive their cars to the circuit (alledgely)

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Slowcoach

It seems to me that in the CSCC we have a large pool of members registered to race , but that quite a few are being alot more selective about where and how frequently they race , often just sticking to a few of their more 'local' events and I think it is a scenario mirrored in other 'middle-tier' championships.
All comes back to costs and profile I'm afraid.......

R. It was something I read in an e mail whilst in the UK which prompted this question.

I understood the grids to be dwindling which in the current financial climate seemed a bit odd. Maybe as you say, its the venues.

[josvandeperre]

QUote : I understood the grids to be dwindling which in the current financial climate seemed a bit odd

Sorry Peter but its been in the Sunday Times so it must be true - we're nearly in recession - many businesses are suffering particularly smaller ones of the type whose bosses/staff indulge themselves by racing - guess where the first cut comes - yep staff - next comes toys

In this financial climate in many ways hobby racers suffer most - quite the reverse imho to your view from over there - see you back soon

In a way I'm agreeing with Slowcoach I guess

[Dan Friel]

It's a strange year, perhaps not helped by a combinbation of events.. F&M seems to have hit 'grass roots' motorsport badly. I'm going to end up doing 4 sprints this year, rather than the planned 7/8..

What worries me is the power of one authrority. Octagon. From a marshalling point of view, it seems to have mucked up this years calendar - with many events clashing.. This hasn't been helped with the collapse of some race series. So in conclusion, not a very rewarding year.

Grid sizes haven't seemed to be too bad.. many saloon series seem to have full grids and the 750 MC seem to be coping well. Plus other series (that cost lots of cash) have plenty of cars, one example being Radicals.

is there too much confusion concerning the future of club motorsport?? And will the MSA start killing off / grouping together poorly supported series. Example, at Cadwell recently - we had a total of 18 FFordie cars, 2 seperate series had 4 races..!! and then Super Mighty Minis (9 cars) also had 2 seperate races from the Mighty Mini's - crazy!!

[Peter Mallett]

The Mini thing is a case in point. I can understand Mini Se7ens and Mini Miglia. However, why do we then have Mighty Minis and Super Mighty Minis? All due respect to Chris Y.

If people want to race minis why not enter another championship where they can race against other makes? One make championships are possibly the major cause of the problem. They represent cheap (ish) racing but in so doing they restrict grids for other, more varied, championships.

Anyway your point about Octagon is interesting. I haven't experienced them yet because of my travels.

[Dan Friel]

It's a diffcult one, becase the likes of Mighty Mini's and Fiat Unos have been successful.. What i don't understand is why someone thought a Proton Cup would ever be successful??

Super Coupe Cup has now been very successful - loads of cars, and something like Monopostos can accommodate all single seaters...

What I don't like about the Octagon thing is that they control so many circuits, so unless your championship co-ordinater bows their head to their every command - you won't be visiting the majority of british circuits next year...

What I've found is that all the MG championships permit too many mods in their classes to make converting my Midget possible, even the standard classes!! That's frustrating, but the HSCC 70's Roadsports may be the cheapest option.

[AndyF]

As a Motorsport Journalist, I would like to add my ideas to this thread. I agree with Slowcoach in that there is an ever increasing gap between proffesional and private teams. The 'club' series are always the best - and more often than not provide the more interesting racing. Clubs like the CSCC and the 750 Motor Club have an excellent spirit, and this helps to keep the numbers high. The competitors will race for the fun of it, and won't just give up if they are not winning as occurs in most high profile series. I think that it is important to give backing to the smaller series, and reward the most popular with guest slots at bigger races. However, this could not really happen with CSCC/750MC etc. There has been a lot of discussion about grid numbers, and the need for as many series, and I believe that many of these points are valid. Refering to Peter Mallett's comments about the Minis - I do not belive that we need, the Mini Se7en, Miglias, Mighty Minis, and Super Mighty Minis. The Mighty Minis are run independantly from the M7RC, and were designed to offer a cheaper route into the sport, as they reqired very few mods.

[THR]

Well, im a fan of single seaters, we currently do the BARC formula renault.
thing is..
we hardly spend much money on the car at all, just on normal running costs really,
has to be cheaper than running a saloon, or at least the same,
but u go a LOT faster in a single seater,
i just cant understand y people go buy minis, feiestas etc.

[AndyF]

I don't know why this is. There seems to be a clear division between Saloons and Single Seaters, and very few drivers race both. Although I don't race, I prefer to watch Saloons in action, because without exposed wings and tyres, the cars can get a lot closer without damage.

[Peter Mallett]

Well in my case its a question of size. I used to fit a FFord quite well but not any more.

For me there is more overtaking in Saloons than Single Seaters.

[AndyF]

One-make racing is always popular as performances are down to the driver, rather than the car. It depends whether you are more interested in the driving or the mechanicals. I agree with Peter, that Saloon racing seems to be a closer form of racing, plus also, it sometimes has a greater spectator appeal as they are 'showroom' or older cars!

[yelwoci]

Like PM I've haven't been out this year.
Largely due to 'accidently - dear' exceeding my declared budget 400% last year and 'her indoors' demanding a house!....if you can spend all that money on that damn car....(few hours of rant)......I want out of this shoe box of a flat (15ftx30ft).....I want a house.

She won!........I liked my flat...it was cosy.

Back to the subject.
Not only is racing in UK expensive compared with continental Europe but the race events are too short (tow your car for 2-5hrs, unpack it for an hour, practise for 10mins, race for 15 and back again) and an increasing number of drivers are happy to trade blows.

Given the MSA's efforts to 'tidy-up' UK motorsport it will be a great concern to those clubs that have a dip in grid numbers, as I believe mergers will be encouraged.

I intend to do fewer, longer races, especially in Europe.
For example:
'92 BMW M3 to 24hr NurburgRing total cost £24K (+ travel, accom, food)
Should achieve 30 laps practice over 2 days and 100laps in race.
Over 2000 miles, shared between 3/4. Say 500miles £6000.
Whole season in UK is no more than 500miles and you'd need a Sunbeam or Mini to do it for £6000. (and NR is an EVENT!)

Finally, just to reiterate that above, the CSCC is a good friendly club to be a member of. Like any other organisation some individuals have more influence than others, but in the CSCC case everyones approachable and its up to members to argue their point as appropriate.


IanC

[Craig]

Dunno what I can add to this as i'm not a driver myself, but my view on this is that there is too many series out there competing against each other.

I'm not talking about the Mini situation - the four series mentioned are doing exactly the right way - they are covering different markets and do not affect each other's grids. I spent a very enjoyable day at Snetterton yesterday watching the Mightys and Super Mightys - and another two weeks ago watching the Se7ens and Miglias at Brands - they are fine examples of how to do things. Something a number of other series organisers can learn by...

Each of the four series are well supported - by drivers as well as spectators - and the social side of things is something that the other series should aspire to. Doorhandling is not looked on kindly and, as I say, they are exactly how the other series should be doing it. Alongside the CSCC, that is...!

However, if you want to talk to me about the state of the single seater classes, it'll be a different matter... and single seaters are just so damned boring as a spectator!

[AndyF]

Yes, Single Seaters are often very boring to watch - but then Saloons are sometimes. The worst race I ever saw was a BOSS Race at Thruxton over 30 laps, with 4 cars!!! At least the fisrt three were within a couple of seconds. I don't know why, but with Single Seaters, there always tends to be some fast cars, and lots of slow ones. However, saloons can be boring too.

[Brianv]

Saloons are more easily identifiable for the non specialist spectator.
Mixing races is a good idea ONLY if Lap times compare (perhaps also driver attitudes)
Having experinced mixed Classic Saloon and Capri at Snett when a certain leading Capri driver (who is still racing )assisted my demise
making me loose vital pionts, it is vitally important that both series drivers enter the race with the same spirit !

Track days are fun more like mixed series racing, allthough overtaking is by consent.Incidently you could enter 600 track days for 6k

Brian

[Chris Y]

The reason for the number of Mini series is just because of plain demand. The Se7ens and Miglias have been running for over 30 years, but there was a demand for a more cheap/friendly/more evenly matched Mini racing championship, and the Mighty Minis were introduced. They have been one of the BRSCC's most popular and fastest growing championship.

The Super Mighty Minis were introduced simply because there was too much demand for the Mighties in 1999 - so a separate series was introduced for the top guys in the Mighty series. The grids are usually about 12 cars, but they are attracting more. Incidentally, Cadwell Park was a double header for both Super and Mighty Minis. If there aren't enough entries for the Supers, then some of the Mightys get invited along for a second race - this happened at Oulton earlier this year.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Chris Y
The reason for the number of Mini series is just because of plain demand. The Se7ens and Miglias have been running for over 30 years, but there was a demand for a more cheap/friendly/more evenly matched Mini racing championship, and the Mighty Minis were introduced. They have been one of the BRSCC's most popular and fastest growing championship.

The Super Mighty Minis were introduced simply because there was too much demand for the Mighties in 1999 - so a separate series was introduced for the top guys in the Mighty series. The grids are usually about 12 cars, but they are attracting more. Incidentally, Cadwell Park was a double header for both Super and Mighty Minis. If there aren't enough entries for the Supers, then some of the Mightys get invited along for a second race - this happened at Oulton earlier this year.

I take your point Chris. But I still say that there are other championships which offer exactly the same as MM and SMM but also provide variety. Ergo, I ask myself why have four Mini Championships when two would really be enough. And losing two would create space for other grids. (I think we are talking about grid space here). The same applies to all those diverse single seater championships. I'm not picking on minis BTW but you came to mind when we started this.

What then occurs is this. The championship secretaries apply to the clubs for race dates. The Clubs concentrate on International, national and club races in that order. Some clubs are left with slim pickings and so they shunt their more populated grids to the outer regions in order to ensure that they at least fulfil their commitment to those less utilised circuits. The drivers in those championships feel annoyed by this and fail to enter. Next year the championships don't get any reasonable circuits and they struggle on, taking space from others. Its a vicious circle.

[Stephen Green]

Right, for what it's worth I'm now going to add my bit to the conversation. Like the guy before me, I am also a marshal and I guess slightly more attuned to spectators than drivers (not that your not a nice bunch when you calm down after destroying your car).

The cost issue is something we are all going to have to live with. All circuits have to operate as businesses and as such have to charge the going rates for their services. Nuff said.

As for grids size. In my humble opinion you are never going to get spectators and or sponsors interested if there are no people to watch the races. Small gids mean lack of spectators (with the exception of TOCA who are living off their laurels). Amalgamate series, put on full or nearly full grids and you might, just might, get the public to come and watch. With that comes the possibility of sponsorship.

I have to admit to being a great fan of 'racing ahead' in its short lifetime. Give you guys short practice sessions and two races. Now the alarm clocks are ringing because two races means maybe some more interest from potential sponsors? At the very least it creates interest from the paying public and hopefully increases crowds.

The next issue is Octagon Motorsport. I think it's a good and bad thing that they have such control over circuits and it can be argued either way, depending on your view. Personally I was quite a fan of Nicola Foulston because she did more for Brands Hatch Leisure than anyone since the death of her father! That's another story though.

What Octagon and other promotors need to do is get the public into their tracks. The clubs rent the tracks, the circuit owners take the gate money. Maybe it';s about time a deal was done between the two to try and increase gate numbers for the sake of both parties? As someone in marketing I have my own ideas for Octagon but will save them until the next time I get made redundant and need a job. However, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realise that there are 4 major radio stations within easy travel distance of Brands and they hold regular competitions. Competitions and free tickets go together don't they? I don't know the mathematics but for every so many freebies you give away, someone will buy a ticket for their wife/husband/boy friend/ girl friend...get my drift now?

As a volunteer official, the last thing I want to do on a wet Saturday or Sunday is stand around in the cold and wet watching four or five cars 'racing' each other. I want to be entertained, to watch good close racing with decent grids. My love of the sport and what I do to help is a distant second in these circumstances.

As drivers and members of various clubs, you need to get together and bash out some formula for success in expanding your racing and grids. The motorsport industry in this country is a major exporter, maybe it's about time a few of the larger concerns began to do a bit more at grass root levels.

My last bit concerns the comment that there is too much racing in this country. Much as it grieves me to say this I tend to agree. As a marshal my time is getting more and more called upon. Like most of you I'm mnarried with a family and cannot just disappear every other weekend for two days, leaving home at 07.30 and returning at 19.30. For example, I have just done three days at Goodwood for the Festival of Speed, home for three days to wash my gear (fireproof undies, socks etc etc) then off to Silverstone for the GP for 4 days. The following weekend Brands had a 3 day meeting for the Big Red (TGP's and Ferraris). Hpow do I explain that to a divorce lawyer?

If I could give up my job at the bank where I work and do marketing for you guys full time I would jump at the opportunity. Reality is you will have to do much of it yourselves.

Stephen.

[AndyF]

Circuit organisers should use common sense. e.g. Brands Hatch, June 23/4th. T-cars have two practice sessions Saturday morning, and one race on Saturday afternoon. They then have to wait 24hrs, including camping overnight for a 10 minute race on the Sunday!