Cologne Capri replica...

[simon drabble]

out of interest how much would it cost to buy a donor car and prepare the shell to full spec Cologne rolling chassis? I ask because I almost chocked on my coffee when I saw someoen trying to sell one on race cars direct for GBP97.5k - engine extra.

Am I missing something or is that quite a healthy margin?

[Al Weyman]

Well I was offered CTCRC Group one championship winners rolling chassis complete as raced for £3k (and still winning as it won last weekend) and I believe its still for sale so I would think thats pie in the sky. I saw a couple of those Penske IROC things that I have one of advertised for ridiculous money ($150,000 and £100,000) and as far as I know neither sold.

[Peter Mallett]

A Gp2 Capri will set you back a substantial wedge. They aren't as expensive as the BMW but £125k as a going concern needing an engine rebuild would appear to be quite reasonable.

Al, there is a world of difference between Jim's Gp1 car and a Grp2 Mk1. As a f'rinstance a set of full race heads for an Essex is around £1200.00 complete with valves and springs. A set of bare GAA heads were on e bay starting at £2500.00.

As an aside if you could have one for £20k, do you think I'd be running in Group 1?

[simon drabble]

but how can a shell and uprights possibly be £100k??????? you can build a lightweight e type in ali for that!!!! dont forget the engine is extra

[Peter Mallett]

Simon, these are not cheap cars even if they are Ford. Sorry to bust the bubble but they really are very complex pieces of machinery, which is one of the reasons why they don't run very often.

The oil coolers are over the rear wheels, there are gearbox and axle oil pumping systems, etc.

[simon drabble]

I am sure that you are right - seems an immense amount to spend on a replica....

[Peter Mallett]

If it is the green/white one I understand it cost substantially more to build. The point is that unlike an E Type there were very few originals and the componentry was generally bespoke so if you want to build one now, apart from the base shell you are starting totally from scratch. Cosworth designed the GAA specifically for the car and built (as I understand it) only 100 kit form engines so you're also into casting new crankshafts etc.

[Tim the Grey]

Wasn't the 3.4 version used in F5000, though, and surely Cosworth down Jimmys End still offer parts for sale?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

If it is the green/white one I understand it cost substantially more to build. The point is that unlike an E Type there were very few originals and the componentry was generally bespoke so if you want to build one now, apart from the base shell you are starting totally from scratch. Cosworth designed the GAA specifically for the car and built (as I understand it) only 100 kit form engines so you're also into casting new crankshafts etc.

Simon, I can only confirm what Peter has said- The 1974 RS3100 (Cologne) Capri was / is an amazing piece of kit. When Ford asked Cosworth to develop the GAA, they initially tried using a standard block. After that didn't work even it had to be redesigned. The lucky people who have engines or parts now are not letting them go. Vince Woodman had problems with his at Donington and it is now in bits again! The cooling system is all in the rear w/arches, the axle and gearbox have pumps & rads also, the wheels are 16" centrelocks, the brakes are massive..........

But- If you are ever near one when it is being started from cold, get close and enjoy one of the most evil sounding engines ever!

The engine was also used for F5000, and I think possibly more than the initial 100 parts sets were made, but they are still very rare.

[Peter Mallett]

@Tim. Yes it was but it was originally designed for the Group 2 car. The story is reasonably interesting (if I can remember it). Ford wanted to go to 3.4 litres but the class required the use of the original casting, so Keith D went to Dagenham and after a couple of attempts found one or two castings that wouldn't fall apart under the loads, so with some engineering know how, he re cast the blocks to resemble the original Essex block and to make them cost effective he produced (I am told) 100 full engines in kit form. These were the ones used in F5000, by among others, the late David Purley.

@Mike. Amazing certainly, it had to be to beat the BMWs.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

@Mike. Amazing certainly, it had to be to beat the BMWs.

And then Zakspeed won the championship with an Escort!

[simon drabble]

Peter this is from the same stable as the green one - it is still being built, hence just a rolling chassis. Dont get me wrong I think - along with the Batmobile and the Jaguar they are awesome cars, and I expected to se that sort of money for an original one just wasn't expecting that for a new build (in fact add an engine and gearbox and you must be talking about £135-40k which is a lot by anyones standards!)

[Al Weyman]

Why are you all refering to the engine, as Simon said the replica was SANS ENGINE!!!! and I agree with what he is saying that just a ridiculous amount of money. My Penske IROC has diff and gearbox coolers and they are a simple Water Puppy pump still stocked by Mocal and not very expensive so cannot see any big deal there. BTW Frank Gardener beat the lot easily in the camaro so if you want a proper replica buy mine and stick an all alloy can am engine in it and go and kick ass!

[Mike Bell]

Having now looked at the Ad and knowing what my Escort cost to source parts & build I am thinking there is a profit margin in there.......

[driftwood]

i saw the advert and laughed my Borat thong off ( photos are available on pay to subscribe website! )
i reckon you can build a car for £75k WITH GAA
cant pass comment on the seller but kite flying is a speciality they have on car prices!

the TWR auction 5 years ago had the N Lauda car complete on the hammer at 55k ish to a well known Ga man who has a replica
i think only 10 original cars where built to race some where 2600 weslake motors the Gaa car maybe ony 5 ran in period so a rare car
CSL original bimmers are £125k ish the replica sold after auction in the mid 70`s mark recently
there are 2 escorts for sale with 80- 100k tags
Gp2 has not yet taken off within the Masters series but in germany they have a selction of Gp2 4 5 cars running in Youngtimer events

Gaa motors are fragile things you can buy a motor for 10-20k depending on rebuild status
i had all the remaining Gaa stuff a tuner had and i sold it in 2 lots 4 years ago? to a "current" racer and guy who wanted to build his Cologne replica car
i do have V6 metering unit if you want 1!

known cars
Vince woodman still has hs Gp2 car
Ric Wood has 1
Peter Mucke in germany has 1 car
there was 1 car in NZ for Paul Fahey car was dismantled and in 5 different locations by 1990 the shell owner was then looking for the parts to re assemble the car elsewhere on forum are some more news on these cars and the kiwi car
i do recall a replica car built in 89 and classic & sports car tested it at donington
i am sure man who was involved in that car was the man stanley mann had a fight over Old No 1 bently with

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

And then Zakspeed won the championship with an Escort!

Wasn't that '73?

As to prices, I'm not suggesting anyone is wrong but as someone who looked into it quite seriously the complete running car at £125-140k would be about right. Sorry if that doesn't fit.

BTW. Its also why the Perana was built rather than a Group 2 Capri.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Why are you all refering to the engine, as Simon said the replica was SANS ENGINE!!!!

True but I was looking at an all up price.

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

and I agree with what he is saying that just a ridiculous amount of money.

Whilst I don't disagree in principle, it isn't the point really is it? I do know how much these cost and whilst I baulk at it people are willing to pay it.

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

My Penske IROC has diff and gearbox coolers and they are a simple Water Puppy pump still stocked by Mocal and not very expensive so cannot see any big deal there. BTW Frank Gardener beat the lot easily in the camaro so if you want a proper replica buy mine and stick an all alloy can am engine in it and go and kick ass!

Firstly. Your Camaro may be the best thing since sliced bread, however connoisseurs prefer home baked olive ciabatta.

Secondly dear old Frank (a personal hero) was not one for following the rules and that win had most people scratching heads until they examined the car.

I'm not for one minute suggesting it is value for money, however if you want to get on track in a car such as this, try building one yourself, then ask Rick W to provide the engine.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Wasn't that '73?

Nope, 1974. They won the German Championship in '73, then in '74 while the Capris and Beemers were taking points off each other they won the 2l class each time out to take the ETCC Manufacturers for Ford, and driver Hans Heyer also took Driver's championship.

Info courtesy of Frank de Jong's excellent website

Sadly Escort prices also jumped when the Gp2 series was announced, but that seems to be the way of things.... Guess have already missed out on finding a bargain Sierra RS500!

[Al Weyman]

I'm not saying it is the best thing since sliced bread just that if you want a BMW beater then a Group 2 spec 454 Camaro will deliver. On the subject of batmobiles I sat in one Chris Randall renovated, ex-Luigi car or something I think he said and was originally going to bring it out in Mod Prods till someone offered him £65K for it so that had to go, think what that is worth now!

[Peter Mallett]

Ah yes, the class thing. No probs I'm a long way from my books.

However perhaps Simon can clarify something. Talking relative values here, in the early eighties a used Gp1 Capri would fetch around £8k. In 1974, Ford were building the Grp 2 cars from scratch and so whilst I've no idea of the original build cost, would it be reasonable to suggest that a cost of £8k would secure the entire car in 1973? If so, what would that equate to in 2009, bearing in mind anyone doing this is going to start from a pre-owned shell which will need acid dipping repairing then acid dipping again?

[terence]

Peter,to prep a reasonable shell to those standards,you could expect a bill in excess of 50k,probably without paint.

[Peter Mallett]

I was thinking half of that but none-the-less a Capri is definitely more expensive to build now than an Escort. I should add that I mean no disrespect with that statement. Just that the bits are far less available. Which is why there are loads of Escorts but few Capris.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Peter,to prep a reasonable shell to those standards,you could expect a bill in excess of 50k,probably without paint.

Yer all mad!

[Peter Mallett]

Only those that buy them are mad. Or bloody lucky!

[Al Weyman]

Anyone that will pay a man £50k to dip, weld and prime up some old piece of tin in a recession IMHO is certifiable. Big deal so that bit of tin may have done a few laps here or there with some luminary driving it the bottom line is its madness to put such a high value on these things.